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Does the universe need intelligence to order it?
- Thread starter Robert.Evans
- Start date
godnotgod
Thou art That
'The Universe IS the Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'
Vivekenanda
....just as the rope, seen as a snake, is actually the rope.
In the case of the 'snake', it disappears upon recognition of the rope, just as the dream vanishes upon awakening. But the universe remains visible upon recognition of its true nature, although it becomes transformed. It remains because the magic that is manifesting it is on a higher level than that of the snake. The transformation that occurs is one of consciousness; it is the consciousness of the 'observer' that becomes transformed, as in:
'First, there is a mountain;
then, there is no mountain'
then, there is.'
apophenia
Well-Known Member
godnotgod
Thou art That
Of course, we have no reason to expect anything, either. Existence is, and it offers no evidence of being "meant to be".
It is surprising to me that so many people are so convinced otherwise.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Most likely due to metaphysical anxiety. At least Buddhism has that to say about it:
'The fundamental difference between Buddhism and other religions is that Buddhism has no God or gods before whom people bow down in return for peace of mind. The spirit enmeshed in the Buddha’s teachings refuses to offer a god in exchange for freedom from anxiety. Instead, freedom from anxiety can only be found at the point where the Self settles naturally upon itself.'
Excerpted from “From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment” by Dogen and Uchiyama
godnotgod
Thou art That
That it is, is part of the cosmic game of Hide and Seek, the fixation of the divine nature upon its own maya, like a child fixated on and lost in the endless patterns in a kaleidescope.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
You speak for yourself.
Oh!...that's right!....'you' don't exist!
can't help but wonder all the word salad 'you' make.
godnotgod
Thou art That
From the point of view of the universe (meant to be everything in toto, including all multiverses), there is no 'large' or 'small'. What is important is not size, but consciousness and its expansion.
godnotgod
Thou art That
godnotgod
Thou art That
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Thank you, Dr. GodnotGod. I heartily disagree. I'm all for expansions of consciousness and they remain an exquisite part of my daily experience, however that does not mean we have free license to make exceptional claims that cannot be supported... and keep a straight face, at the very least.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
That is just an assertion, as baseless as any theological assertion IMO.
Words like 'divine' are the essential stuff of fabrication and duality.
I have experienced a huge variety of altered states and meditative visions in my life. Some profound, some confusing, some delightful, some awful.
I see no evidence that this experience is a game, or ultimately purposeful.
I can assume it is - and it seems to be.
I can assume it isn't - and it seems it isn't.
I don't for one moment believe that you have any real basis for this assertion either, or that anyone has.
Complex and amazing, yes. A 'game' or a purposeful act, no. Or if so, not at a level of mind accessible to us, or necessary for us to know.
Beyond all that activity there is a pervading witness which in itself has no discernible qualities. That is a door to a profound peace, a deeply restful and satisfying state.
That's it.
That's all she wrote.
The only conceptual stuff of any value comes down to quality of relationships.
Cosmic assertions are a dead end.
Unless you want to do the professional circuit - books and talks and expensive weekends...
godnotgod
Thou art That
Size is relative. What is big in one context is small in another. The universe doesn't care. Without consciousness, there is no big or small. So consciousness is primary. You can disagree, but your disagreement also requires consciousness. Consciousness is like Tao: all pervading, but never imposing. It has the best of good manners.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Not quite. If that is all, there would be no universe. But not only is there a universe, the universe is filled with unbelievable variety, and the presence of such variety is the outcome of play. And you don't require purpose for play. Play is its own point. Were it not, it would be a serious affair, and such variety would have strict utility. Howerver, when we take a look, we find a great deal of it has no usefulness whatsoever. We find, for example, a plethora of stars and galaxies, all with no use in the least, but for the sake of their own multi faceted existence.. I will stop there so you can think about that.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
apophenia
Well-Known Member
There's nothing there that warrants further thinking.
"If that is all, there would be no universe." Nothing in that one.
"the presence of such variety is the outcome of play". Nothing in that one
Just two statements. Nothing more.
Basically you are saying "my ideas are right - because I think they are. And some famous people said so too". But nothing else.
It reminds me of a cover note on George Harrisons Electronic Sound LP -
"Lots of people are making lots of noise. Here's some more"
- Arthur Wax
Me. Whatever I am ...
That was totally covered thousands of years ago in the Rig Veda, as JRMcC's sig reminded me a moment ago -
"Whence this creation has arisen - perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not - the one who looks down on it, in the highest heaven, only he knows - or perhaps he does not." - Rig Veda 10.129
Gautama said much the same thing 2500 years ago.
I'll leave it at that.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Let's try again: there is not only a universe, but one filled with variety. Ordinarily, how does variety come about?
And what/who is that?
I never heard of Guatama uttering such a thing. But the Rig Veda saying it, fits into your definition of being merely an assertion or assumption, or both, without support. The Rig Veda refers to creation, but Hinduism which follows sees it as an illusory manifestation, and Buddhism after that sees it without a creator or other agency.
What I have been talking about is simply a conscious universe, without an engineer, without purpose.
First experience then belief so it is both. I observe the people calling God Father are different than the people who don't.