Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Rick O'Shez]

First experience then belief so it is both.

Though I think it's quite tricky to disentangle these and to be clear about which comes first. We often try to fit our experience into an underlying belief system, which leads to confirmation bias and so on.
Or some people develop a personal theory, invest in it heavily, and then try to "prove" it any way they can.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

fdwalsjk;jk asklj l;askj fklasd fj;ajksf ;lsdfa

Thank you, master, I shall ponder your wise words.

 

[godnotgod]

First experience then belief so it is both. I observe the people calling God Father are different than the people who don't.

If your experience is authentic, what need is there then for belief?

Q: What is it about your experience that makes you certain it is about a heavenly 'father'? Do you know what psychological projection is?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Isn't claiming to having no ego tantamount to declaring that one is enlightened?

Indeed. Though the actual size of an ego becomes rapidly apparent in a discussion like this.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So what is the universe ?

We have no idea really. Just ideas, imaginings, speculations.

 

[godnotgod]

Isn't claiming to having no ego tantamount to declaring that one is enlightened? .

No. Claiming to be enlightened is tantamount to having an ego.

It's like claiming to have eyeballs. Everyone (mostly) has them, so why the cock a doodle doo?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Basically you are saying "my ideas are right - because I think they are

But why should that not be right? Perhaps consciousness is the most fundamental part of everything, and the physical is just an illusion.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Though I think it's quite tricky to disentangle these and to be clear about which comes first. We often try to fit our experience into an underlying belief system, which leads to confirmation bias and so on.
Or some people develop a personal theory, invest in it heavily, and then try to "prove" it any way they can.

You like that ''confirmation bias'' lingo don't you? Does it work for you also?

 

[Robert.Evans]

We have no idea really. Just ideas, imaginings, speculations.

Does that include you?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You like that ''confirmation bias'' lingo don't you? Does it work for you also?

Of course. Maybe the difference is that some of us are aware of it. How aware are you of it?
People can experience cognitive dissonance when firmly held beliefs are challenged, it's quite uncomfortable but an indicator that current assumptions might need some revision.
This is basic psychology, by the way.

Sadly I think a lot of people aren't aware of the extent of confirmation bias, and maybe Dawkins had a point when he called his book "The God delusion".

The psychology of belief is a fascinating subject.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Does that include you?

Absolutely. And I am somewhat dubious about people who claim to know. I think it's often belief masquerading as insight, something clearly in evidence on this thread.
And true insight isn't perturbed by challenge.

 

[savagewind]

If your experience is authentic, what need is there then for belief?

Q: What is it about your experience that makes you certain it is about a heavenly 'father'? Do you know what psychological projection is?

I understand this. "Belief" in that there is no good reason to change my "mind". I am certain I do not want to kill my Heavenly Father.

I know what a psycological projection is. I read a little.

 

[savagewind]

Though I think it's quite tricky to disentangle these and to be clear about which comes first. We often try to fit our experience into an underlying belief system, which leads to confirmation bias and so on.
Or some people develop a personal theory, invest in it heavily, and then try to "prove" it any way they can.

This is plain truth. Plain truth isn't interesting.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

plain truth

As opposed to?......

 

[savagewind]

As opposed to?......

You know what it is opposed to or are you fighting nothing? At least I can see what I am jousting. Now I wonder why can't you?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You know what it is opposed to

No I don't know, that's why I asked the question. Is there any other kind of truth?

 

[savagewind]

Of course

No I don't know, that's why I asked the question. Is there any other kind of truth?

Of course there is. What is the answer to a riddle? Plain? I don't agree.
The Bible calls it "a mystery". I can't coincide "plain" and "mystery". Can you?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Plain I don't agree.

So are you making a distinction between plain truth and spiritual truth here? Could you give some examples?

 

[savagewind]

So are you making a distinction between plain truth and spiritual truth here? Could you give some examples?

It is not between plain truth and spiritual truth. It is between obvious truth and mystery. So world can have both and spirit can have both.
One obvious example of mystery is the relationship between God the Father and god the son. One obvious non-mystery of spirit is love. I think love is true but is not a mystery. It is elusive but everyone knows it, I think. One mystery of world truth is who caused the death of the US president Kennedy. It is true he is dead. Is it?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is between obvious truth and mystery.

So the difference between the known and the unknown?