Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Rick O'Shez]

For example have you ever done Tai Chi? If you haven't I recommend it. Anyway if you get to the point where you can "feel" the chi moving through you, even if its just during the motion try to touch something with that "energy" like a stone or a tree. Even the ground.

Yes, I've done Tai Chi but always struggled to remember the forms! I think I know what you mean, there is a sort of letting go involved, a sense of "flow". Are there any other practices you do specifically to develop sensitivity? I think meditation is generally conducive to this, but I'm aware that there any many approaches to it.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Yes, I've done Tai Chi but always struggled to remember the forms! I think I know what you mean, there is a sort of letting go involved, a sense of "flow". Are there any other practices you do specifically to develop sensitivity? I think meditation is generally conducive to this.

Yes but I find a lot of people have difficulty with meditation in general weather it be spiritual or not. But if you are able to meditate to obtain the same sensation then whichever works for you.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I honestly get where you are coming from but why do you believe that the pocket of "me" in the All is conscious means that the whole universe has a higher universal conscience? We can have all kinds of properties and qualities in pockets in the universe that are not necessarily universal.

It looks like an assumption to me.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes but I find a lot of people have difficulty with meditation in general weather it be spiritual or not

Oh, I know, I've been teaching Buddhist meditation on and off for many years. When I was running a Buddhist group I would gently encourage people to meditate regularly, but sometimes it was like being a primary school teacher asking why the kids hadn't brought in their homework, you know, like "The dog ate it, miss."

 

[Robert.Evans]

GNG, you have posted this in two threads now, and I think not for the first time. It looks to me like you are more interested in evangelising than having a genuine discussion. Many of your posts look more like preaching than an attempt at dialogue..

Spiney, you do need to get off his case you know. You don't have to read this thread. Whether he is helping you or not is not the point. The point is he IS supplying the information for you and others, inlcuding me, which can help our understanding. I for one am glad of it.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Oh, I know, I've been teaching Buddhist meditation on and off for many years. When I was running a Buddhist group I would gently encourage people to meditate regularly, but sometimes it was like being a primary school teacher asking why the kids hadn't brought in their homework, you know, like "The dog ate it, miss."

Did you ever give them zen riddles to solve?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The point is he IS supplying the information for you and others, inlcuding me, which can help our understanding. I for one am glad of it.

Point taken. It's the preachy tone I am really objecting to, the evangelising. Those are not conducive to a genuine debate or a meaningful sharing of experience.

What I also object to is the persistent misrepresentation of Buddhism, quantum mechanics and so on. I feel it's entirely reasonable to challenge those misrepresentations. Necessary, actually.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Did you ever give them zen riddles to solve?

No, I'm not very good at Zen riddles and wouldn't inflict them on anyone else.
I think they can become an intellectual game, which is of course missing the point.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Consciousness looks like an emergent property of biological life, so I don't see how it's a matter of balance. The universe is vast and impressive and wouldn't care in the slightest whether there are primitive species like ours to gaze at the stars.

Thinking otherwise is just a variation on believing that the earth is at the centre of the universe, and it was all made just for us. Human arrogance really.

We are like bacteria on a rock pretending that we understand the world.

That is just your own philosophical view. It's a kindof religion really, ain't it.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That is just your own philosophical view

I guess it is. The whole thread is views.

Which bits don't you agree with and why?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Preaching is certainly cheap. Hearing people talk about their personal experiences and the way they think about them has been interesting and useful to me. The rest seems mostly about variations on theistic belief, and even "cosmic consciousness" looks like a new-age take on pantheism.

Baring in mind you are human also, what are you doing any different than anyone else on this thread? Are you not putting across your views? What is the difference. At least some here are giving answers and provoking some discussion.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What is the difference

Some contributors adopt a preachy and patronising tone and continually hint at higher knowledge. Other contributors share experience and ideas, but don't claim that their truth is universal.
The difference is crystal clear to me, I'm surprised you don't see what is going on.

 

[Robert.Evans]

You're really twisting what I'm saying around, so I'm going to bow out of this discussion. Also, as I previously mentioned, you're elevating your beliefs as if they were facts, and that also complicates any attempt at serious discussion.

But what if they are facts and you can't see it? Would you prefer him to lie?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Some contributors adopt a preachy and patronising tone and continually hint at higher knowledge. Other contributors share experience and ideas, but don't claim that their truth is universal.
The difference is crystal clear to me, I'm surprised you don't see what is going on.

I see your argument, but I don't look for that in someone, I look for the understanding that I can take out of it.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Indeed, and preaching is not conducive to genuine debate.

He is not preaching. The same could be levelled at you for your constant remarks. The door swings both ways you know. It is not his fault you cant understand.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I look for the understanding that I can take out of it.

Oh me too. Actually I have taken quite a lot from the thread, but mostly from the people who have talked honestly and modestly about their own experience.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

He is not preaching.

It isn't just me who has made the observation.

Anyway, how about we get back to the topic?

 

[Robert.Evans]

I guess it is. The whole thread is views.

Which bits don't you agree with and why?

On this thread. Just about all of yours, sorry. You have no comprehension for the subject at all.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Oh me too. Actually I have taken quite a lot from the thread, but mostly from the people who have talked honestly and modestly about their own experience.

Well I am glad that you have. That is good to know, and news to me

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You have no comprehension for the subject at all.

Oh dear, you seem to have caught the patronising virus which has been going around!
Anyway, I've got used to it on this thread by now and have grown immune.

So how about returning to the topic?

The OP question was "does the universe need intelligence to order it?"

So do you believe in "cosmic consciousness"? It does look to me like a version of pantheism to me - or maybe panpsychism? Are your views more like deism? I'm not sure.