Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

[F1fan]

We have a fundamental disagreement between us, or atheists and theists - You believe that all man's behaviour, whether good or bad, is derived from either genetics or chemical ratios within their biology. I believe it stems from the disposition of their heart - the spirit in man.

You can only speak for yourself in your questionable belief. There are many educated atheists and theists who refer to the social sciences to explain human behavior.

All man's struggles and conflicts on this earth ..

As opposed to some other earth.

...is not on the grounds of survival, pragmatism or rationality, as would be expected from a being created from the same substance as all other things within his environment - a symbiotic relationship should've be necessitated.

Is this your way of claiming humans aren't part of the natural order that evolved like all other organisms? It sounds like you are trying to sound educated, but the creationism is obvious. Let's note that creationism is religious-based fraud.

But, rather, man's greed, selfishness, arrogance, pretense, entitlement, perversions, depravity, etc... dictate all his actions. This is the sole problem in the world - the spiritual warfare that wages in man's heart, causing him, more often that not, to make the wrong and self-serving decisions.

The funny thing about religious folks all these negative things about humans is that you are talking about God's creation, and being critical of the beings your God created. That's messy, and suggests a confused mind.

It's vastly less messy not adopting the type of religious views you have. Following facts and using reason brings a great deal of understanding and clarity.

 

[F1fan]

I do, in a sense - I entirely question their sincerity and objectivity. You do not want to believe despite the axiomatic evidence.

How odd, critical thinkers (atheists) are quite open about their thinking process and how they follow facts and use reasoning to sound conclusions. On what basis would you doubt sincerity and objectivity, unless you are projecting your own lack of these?

And why would anyone want to believe in ideas that lack evidence? There are self-serving reasons, and typically are hidden from the self, so how would you know? Belief for the sake of belief will be self-serving for hidden reasons. That's the nature of self-deception: fooling the self.

 

[F1fan]

You're sounding childish, Ashoka - Jesus never told anyone to kill in his name.

Yet they did.

Are you so naïve that you can't tell the difference between a charlatan, and a devout believer?

The problem is the inconsistencies among Christians and why so many are not moral nor follow Jesus. I don't see much reflecting Jesus in your comments. If religion is the answer for humans why is Christianity falling so short? Look at all the Lutherans and Catholics who made up the Nazis who committed atrocities. I don't see you answering those questions.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Please, now you are merely trying to use a No True Scotsman fallacy. And you still have not deal with the fact that a theistic belief like you have does nothing for the victim. Atheism is more moral even if you use your logical fallacy.

I don't see how atheism is more moral.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't see how atheism is more moral.

Because many, though not all, religions allow one to apologize to God and everything is "okay". In fact some rather extreme Christian churches teach their members that if they are saved they can no longer sin. That leads to huge abuses with not attempts at making amends. In atheism one has to own up to the fact that when we do wrong we are to blame and it is up to us to make it right. God won't do that for us

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Because many, though not all, religions allow one to apologize to God and everything is "okay". In fact some rather extreme Christian churches teach their members that if they are saved they can no longer sin. That leads to huge abuses with not attempts at making amends. In atheism one has to own up to the fact that when we do wrong we are to blame and it is up to us to make it right. God won't do that for us

In atheism, we don't have to do anything. Certainly there are plenty of morally sound worldviews built on or inclusive of atheism. But I can't describe atheism as moral...or immoral...because it doesn't deal with morality.

 

[Ashoka]

You're sounding childish, Ashoka - Jesus never told anyone to kill in his name.
Are you so naïve that you can't tell the difference between a charlatan, and a devout believer?

Jesus may not have explicitly said to kill in his name, but Christians have. And do. Many of them were and are "devout believers."

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I do, in a sense - I entirely question their sincerity and objectivity.

Of course you do. You've been trained to. According to your holy scriptures, unbelievers are corrupt, vile, wicked, abominable, godless vessels of darkness in the service of evil, not one of whom does any good, to be shunned, and all of whom are fit to be burned alive forever as enemies of a good god and the moral equivalent of murderers and whoremongers. Is it any wonder people that read those words or hear sermons from others that do are filled with hatred for atheists?

[1] "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good" - Psalm 14:1

[2] "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." - Revelation 21:8

[3]"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"- 2 Corinthians 6:14

[4] Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ." - 1 John 2:22

[5] "Whoever is not with me is against me" - Luke 11:23

You simply weren't able to defend yourself from your religion's bigotry, and so here you are on the Internet telling everybody who will listen what failed people atheists are. Of course, you only reveal the ethical shortcomings of your religion.

can anyone of you explain the gratuitous and unfathomable atrocities in the world?

Yes, but you can't.

not one of you god-haters have even remotely understood a thing being said here.

You flatter yourself, atheist-hater. Nothing that you say isn't simple.

You come back with idiotic replies about comparing the landslide majority of people who have ever lived on the planet having worshipped something, with that of the belief in Santa Claus.

What's the difference except the particulars of the beliefs? Santa's jolly and Jehovah is angry. Santa gives coals to bad kids and Jehovah sends bad kids to hell. Then there's the overlap. Each keeps a naughty and nice list, and their is no evidence that either ever existed. Believers are routinely offended whenever their god is compared to any other fictional character, but that's your cross to bear.

Where in the world did 90% of the human inhabitants on this earth acquire such a propensity, how did protoplasm and stardust endow man with such a spiritual dimension to his constitution?

A propensity for religion? Biological evolution combined with cultural evolution.

Billions of dollars spent on religious edifices, religious education, literature, debates, degrees, sermons,. missionary efforts, martyrdoms, asceticism, dissertations on virtue and morality

Man is adept at exploiting his fellow man. That's what the priesthood is all about. Religion is big business now, although it seems to be meeting the fate of Blockbuster Video as churches close left and right for lack of relevance. Being a priest has always meant not having to work outdoors or labor. No special talent is needed except the gift of gab. There are no qualifications. And people will take a day off from work each week and bring you money if you tell them to.

Are you so naïve that you can't tell the difference between a charlatan, and a devout believer?

The question always arises with outrageous claims whether the claimant actually believe them himself, but why should one care? I steer clear in either case.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You made a point somewhere?

Several people have. You should pay closer attention to what's being said maybe, than trying to come up with hateful quips to insult atheists.

 

[SkepticThinker]

We have a fundamental disagreement between us, or atheists and theists - You believe that all man's behaviour, whether good or bad, is derived from either genetics or chemical ratios within their biology. I believe it stems from the disposition of their heart - the spirit in man.

All man's struggles and conflicts on this earth is not on the grounds of survival, pragmatism or rationality, as would be expected from a being created from the same substance as all other things within his environment - a symbiotic relationship should've be necessitated.
But, rather, man's greed, selfishness, arrogance, pretense, entitlement, perversions, depravity, etc... dictate all his actions. This is the sole problem in the world - the spiritual warfare that wages in man's heart, causing him, more often that not, to make the wrong and self-serving decisions.

These are the same greedy, selfish, arrogant, entitled, perverted, depraved, etc. beings that are made in the image of God?
Yikes! This god must be one terrible, horrible, awful being.

 

[F1fan]

In atheism, we don't have to do anything. Certainly there are plenty of morally sound worldviews built on or inclusive of atheism. But I can't describe atheism as moral...or immoral...because it doesn't deal with morality.

Atheism only means a person isn't going to submit to some religious authority, whether that is the dogma, the God, the clerics, the traditions, etc. Not being a theist means a person will have to rely on their own moral sense, and with that kind of responsibility the person has to be more reflective on actions and outcomes.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do, in a sense - I entirely question their sincerity and objectivity. You do not want to believe despite the axiomatic evidence.

Like I said, can anyone of you explain the gratuitous and unfathomable atrocities in the world? And if you naively and ineptly try playing the 'chemical' card again, then consider how many humans that you have to label as such. And then, explain why such a large and predominant demography of humans, a product of nature itself (according to you), behave in such a manner that is so antithetical to the betterment of man, society and nature?

Like I keep saying, you just don't see the evidence. ...and not one of you god-haters have even remotely understood a thing being said here.
You come back with idiotic replies about comparing the landslide majority of people who have ever lived on the planet having worshipped something, with that of the belief in Santa Claus. Where in the world did 90% of the human inhabitants on this earth acquire such a propensity, how did protoplasm and stardust endow man with such a spiritual dimension to his constitution?

Billions of dollars spent on religious edifices, religious education, literature, debates, degrees, sermons,. missionary efforts, martyrdoms, asceticism, dissertations on virtue and morality - you don't believe that man is a spiritual creature?

And, all that for something that doesn't even exist? Dawkins called it delusionary - he was wrong - it's flippin' insanity if there is no God.
Now, again, explain via your big-bang or evolution theory, how 90% of humans, the most intellectually advanced creature on the planet, became so insane, deluded, incompetent or dysfunctional - take your pick?

Perhaps if you had something more to offer than logical fallacies,

So far you've offered an argument from personal incredulity. You can't fathom the way the world is, or that it is the way it is, so there must be some god pulling all the strings.
And now with an argument ad populum. The number of people that believe in something, has no bearing on whether or not said thing actually exists. Lots of people believe in all kinds of false things all the time. This is why critical thinking is so important.

These are not evidence. These are errors in logical thinking and reasoning.
Present some more compelling evidence, and I'll consider this. These are not compelling.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Because many, though not all, religions allow one to apologize to God and everything is "okay". In fact some rather extreme Christian churches teach their members that if they are saved they can no longer sin. That leads to huge abuses with not attempts at making amends. In atheism one has to own up to the fact that when we do wrong we are to blame and it is up to us to make it right. God won't do that for us

That is not atheism. Atheist is the lack of positive beliefs in gods. That is all. You can be an atheist and believe that you can't be wrong, because of reasons...
It is psychology and can be found regardless of religion or not.

 

[F1fan]

That is not atheism. Atheist is the lack of positive beliefs in gods. That is all.

Correct, unless it is strong atheism.

You can be an atheist and believe that you can't be wrong, because of reasons...

Who does this? Can you name any atheists who "believe they can't be wrong"? It sounds almost godlike.

It is psychology and can be found regardless of religion or not.

How is this relevant? Non-theism is a status and category of people who aren't convinced that any of the many god concepts are true, despite the claims of many other people.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Atheism only means a person isn't going to submit to some religious authority, whether that is the dogma, the God, the clerics, the traditions, etc. Not being a theist means a person will have to rely on their own moral sense, and with that kind of responsibility the person has to be more reflective on actions and outcomes.

You might hope they would, certainly. But atheism doesn't guarantee that, or anything else.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You might hope they would, certainly. But atheism doesn't guarantee that, or anything else.

That is true. But atheism at least does not get in the way of moral behavior. Many religions have immoral behavior built into them. For example the Abrahamic hatred and ordered persecution of LGBQT people and also people with differing religious views.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is true. But atheism at least does not get in the way of moral behavior. Many religions have immoral behavior built into them. For example the Abrahamic hatred and ordered persecution of LGBQT people and also people with differing religious views.

I've just realized over the last few days that at least two different religions have some very troubling views built into them when it comes to rape/sexual assault.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I've just realized over the last few days that at least two different religions have some very troubling views built into them when it comes to rape/sexual assault.

Most religions are also self contradictory. That allows believers to argue that their religion does not do that. They merely ignore the evil parts of their religion when they want to.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Correct, unless it is strong atheism.

Who does this? Can you name any atheists who "believe they can't be wrong"? It sounds almost godlike.

How is this relevant? Non-theism is a status and category of people who aren't convinced that any of the many god concepts are true, despite the claims of many other people.

It was about morality.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It was about morality.

Okay, atheism may be morally neutral. It still beats many religions that very often have immoral actions ordered by their dogmas.