Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Okay, atheism may be morally neutral. It still beats many religions that very often have immoral actions ordered by their dogmas.

Well, as always it depends on the definition of atheism.
As for the part about dogmas, yes, true. But you can find the same effect in some philosophies/political ideologies.

 

[F1fan]

Okay, atheism may be morally neutral. It still beats many religions that very often have immoral actions ordered by their dogmas.

It’s pretty dishonest for believers to promote their religions as being a crucial path and source for morals when so many of their fellow believers do horrific acts and harm. When challenged they retreat to “God says…” or “the Bible says…(their interpretation)….” As if either have any authority. The only reason religious ideas, beliefs, morals carry any weight in a secular society is because of the significant traditions of belief. There’s no way the current Supreme Court would exist without evangelicals wanting Roe v Wade overturned.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It’s pretty dishonest for believers to promote their religions as being a crucial path and source for morals when so many of their fellow believers do horrific acts and harm. When challenged they retreat to “God says…” or “the Bible says…(their interpretation)….” As if either have any authority. The only reason religious ideas, beliefs, morals carry any weight in a secular society is because of the significant traditions of belief. There’s no way the current Supreme Court would exist without evangelicals wanting Roe v Wade overturned.

Well, yes, for believers in effect of objective authority and morality. But that is not all believers.
So as the standard goes for me being believer as to speak out against objective authority and morality. I don't accept any objective authority and morality, but I don't limit that to religion.
Now it is your turn.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe the glaciers were the result of the great flood. It cooled earth causing ice age. So, it is possible that some geological findings are because of the ice.

That makes zero sense, in every way.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Evidence for the great flood would be:
1. Oil, gas and coal fields
2. Massive sedimentary formations
3. Modern continents
4. Marine fossils on high mountains
5. Ice age and great glaciers
6. Stories about it all over the world

I think all of those exist, therefore I think your claim is false.

Literally none of those points make sense in context of the biblical flood myth

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I find it a bit bizarre to ask such a question that, in and of itself, implies morality, virtue and holiness, and ask if it promotes immorality without a single explanation as to how such an antithetical reaction would occur?
In other words, how in the world can theism lead to immorality, when everything that it stands for is the demand for moral conduct?

yeah... religiously inspired immoral behavior is, like, totally unheared of!

Unless one is a hypocrite or charlatan, or has a wicked view of God, then without theism the world would be just as the animal kingdom - dog-eat-dog, looking out for number one, the survival of the physically fittest, kill or be killed, with absolutely no remorse when an injustice is committed.

I don't require any theistic dogma's to act like a decent human being, tolerant of others.

Again, outside of the immature, insincere or those with ulterior motives, theism always leads to morality, with, of course, periodical back-sliding or failures along the way.

That isn't my experience at all.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Both you and Steven Weinberg are referring to the misguided, exploitive and/or insincere.

I smell a no-true scottsman.

Many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion - but what fool would call those people devout theists?

The people that committed the atrocities themselves, for starters.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do, in a sense - I entirely question their sincerity and objectivity. You do not want to believe despite the axiomatic evidence.

Like I said, can anyone of you explain the gratuitous and unfathomable atrocities in the world? And if you naively and ineptly try playing the 'chemical' card again, then consider how many humans that you have to label as such. And then, explain why such a large and predominant demography of humans, a product of nature itself (according to you), behave in such a manner that is so antithetical to the betterment of man, society and nature?

Like I keep saying, you just don't see the evidence. ...and not one of you god-haters have even remotely understood a thing being said here.
You come back with idiotic replies about comparing the landslide majority of people who have ever lived on the planet having worshipped something, with that of the belief in Santa Claus. Where in the world did 90% of the human inhabitants on this earth acquire such a propensity, how did protoplasm and stardust endow man with such a spiritual dimension to his constitution?

Billions of dollars spent on religious edifices, religious education, literature, debates, degrees, sermons,. missionary efforts, martyrdoms, asceticism, dissertations on virtue and morality - you don't believe that man is a spiritual creature?

And, all that for something that doesn't even exist? Dawkins called it delusionary - he was wrong - it's flippin' insanity if there is no God.
Now, again, explain via your big-bang or evolution theory, how 90% of humans, the most intellectually advanced creature on the planet, became so insane, deluded, incompetent or dysfunctional - take your pick?

Humans, like most animals that are also the prey of another, are very prone to type 2 cognition errors (the false positive and a propensity to infuse agency in otherwise random events).

It's the basis for superstition.
Ironically, our intelligence is also the cause of our tendency to invent such elaborate imaginary patterns around those cognition erros.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It’s pretty dishonest for believers to promote their religions as being a crucial path and source for morals when so many of their fellow believers do horrific acts and harm..

We all fall short .. and of course, you wish to point at the "worst failures", as if they represent faith.
They do not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't see how atheism is more moral.

Atheism isn't a doctrine.

To ask if atheism is "moral" is like asking what the color purple tastes like.
It's an invalid question. It doesn't apply

Atheism is mere disbelief of theistic claims.
Not a doctrine that comes with rules and guidelines on how to live your life and treat people.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We all fall short .. and of course, you wish to point at the "worst failures", as if they represent faith.
They do not.

I disagree. Since people very often get their moral ideas from their faith it is the faith that is to blame. Atheists fall short too. But it is on an individual basis. We do not have the strength of an organization that makes our errors much more powerful If I hate someone that is on me only. If my religion tells me to hate others that would be on my religion and it would also give my hate more power.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I disagree. Since people very often get their moral ideas from their faith it is the faith that is to blame. Atheists fall short too. But it is on an individual basis. We do not have the strength of an organization that makes our errors much more powerful If I hate someone that is on me only. If my religion tells me to hate others that would be on my religion and it would also give my hate more power.

Well, look up Objectivism by Ayn Rand. Her system in effect have dogmatic claims of in effect faith. Yet she was an atheist.
And then there is this bunch.
"

Definitions​

Atheism is the comprehensive world view of persons who are free from theism and have freed themselves of supernatural beliefs altogether. It is predicated on ancient Greek Materialism.

Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind, finding the resources within themselves, can and must create their own destiny. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism’s ‘faith’ is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment that is, in its very essence, life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited."

Our Vision

We envision a world in which policies are made using the best evidence we have rather than using religious dogma.

www.atheists.org

They have natural beliefs and faith in effect.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, look up Objectivism by Ayn Rand. Her system in effect have dogmatic claims of in effect faith. Yet she was an atheist.
And then there is this bunch.
"

Definitions​

Atheism is the comprehensive world view of persons who are free from theism and have freed themselves of supernatural beliefs altogether. It is predicated on ancient Greek Materialism.

Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind, finding the resources within themselves, can and must create their own destiny. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism’s ‘faith’ is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment that is, in its very essence, life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited."

Our Vision

We envision a world in which policies are made using the best evidence we have rather than using religious dogma.

www.atheists.org

They have natural beliefs and faith in effect.

And how many followers does she have? Is there any power behind their beliefs?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And how many followers does she have? Is there any power behind their beliefs?

Well, if you remove all standard religions there are secular philosophies and political ideologies that can feel the same needs for being right.
The problem is in effect you treat religion as a special negative and not a natural variation of in effect nature and nurture.

 

[F1fan]

We all fall short ..

The problem for many believers is that they think they are following God's orders so can't consider themselves "falling short". That's why being accountable for your own acts as your own moral arbiter is a more humble approach.

and of course, you wish to point at the "worst failures", as if they represent faith.

Why are there any if they are following God?

They do not.

They don't know that, why?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We all fall short .. and of course, you wish to point at the "worst failures", as if they represent faith.
They do not.

That argument doesn't fly when it is literally the religion and the scripture that fuels the hate, intolerance and horrible acts.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

I completely disagree with that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why are there any if they are following God?

How many times do I have to tell you..
We are not automatons .. we all fall short.
Many people are duped into following evil .. and some purposely follow evil.

You are a human .. you should understand .. or are you claiming to be somehow Holy / Divine?

 

[muhammad_isa]

That argument doesn't fly when it is literally the religion and the scripture that fuels the hate..

False .. G-d does not like those who start aggression.

 

[dybmh]

So explain why God will create some children with birth defects, or some sort of fatal cancer. Let's hear the justification.

I've tried to explain it to other people, it always falls apart because the full explaination takes hours and hours, and the person needs to be willing to understand.

But the simple answer is, those things are a result of chaos and randomness. And chaos and randomness are required for the material world to exist. If that is stiffled, then everything gets reabsorbed back into God. Sluuuuuuuuuuup.