Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

[TagliatelliMonster]

Like I said, evil people will find any excuse.

This is just false and a case of head-in-sand.
I have personally known several guys back in the day before they turned islamist terrorist by joining ISIS in Syria.

I can honestly tell you that they weren't "evil people".
Their radical religious beliefs made them "evil people".

To say that radical religion had nothing to do with that, is to just be in serious denial.

 

[1213]

Literally none of those points make sense in context of the biblical flood myth

Please explain why do you think so?

 

[Ashoka]

Your accusations make no sense. You either love Jesus, or you don't. Do not blame Jesus for those who misunderstood everything that he said and stood for, obviously.
I can't believe that this has to be clarified?

People who love Jesus have, and still do commit atrocities in his name. People who use the Bible to justify it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Right, the 9-11 hijackers were following God's commands..

How do you know that .. did you personly know them?
I understand that they were seen drinking beer in a public place..
Were they following "God's commands" then, or are you saying it was all part of the conspiracy?

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is just false and a case of head-in-sand.
I have personally known several guys back in the day before they turned islamist terrorist by joining ISIS in Syria.

I can honestly tell you that they weren't "evil people".
Their radical religious beliefs made them "evil people".

To say that radical religion had nothing to do with that, is to just be in serious denial.

You confuse religion with politics..

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Please explain why do you think so?

Why? It's not like you attempted to explain why you think any of those points support your flood myth.

All those points have scientific explanations. None are the result of floods, let alone a physically impossible flood like the magical one described the myth of the bible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How do you know that .. did you personly know them?
I understand that they were seen drinking beer in a public place..
Were they following "God's commands" then, or are you saying it was all part of the conspiracy?

Interesting how your go-to indicator that they weren't following the tenets of Islam was drinking alcohol and not, you know, murdering three thousand people.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How do you know that .. did you personly know them?
I understand that they were seen drinking beer in a public place..
Were they following "God's commands" then, or are you saying it was all part of the conspiracy?

Islamist terrorists very much believe that they are carrying out allah's will and that they are holy warriors involved in a holy war, carrying out a religious duty.
They consider themselves holy martyrs for islam.

To deny this, is to deny reality.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You confuse religion with politics..

I really, really don't.

Their motivations were very much religious.
It off course is true that politics were / are involved, but Islam is infamous for mixing politics with religion.

But what they did, they very much did out of religious conviction. They considered themselves soldiers of Allah. Not soldiers of their Imam or Belkacem (who recruited them).

When they detonated themselves, they shouted "Allahu Akbar", not "Belkacem Akbar".
When they motivated their actions, they quoted the Quran, not Belkacem or Shariah4Belgium pamflets.

But you can continue sticking your head in the sand if you want.

 

[shunyadragon]

Inspired by this thread:

Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say. It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral? And, does this have anything...

www.religiousforums.com

Sauce for the goose and all that.

My personal take: yes, theism often - though not always - leads to immoral behavior.

Theism, true or false should not be the scapegoat for Natural Human behavior throughout the history of humanity regardless of what one believes is moral. You also have to deal with the subjective perspective of what is moral in different cultures and history

 

[shunyadragon]

Interesting how your go-to indicator that they weren't following the tenets of Islam was drinking alcohol and not, you know, murdering three thousand people.

You know . . . Wars between nations and Civil Wars kill millions.

Considering ancient mythology like the Noah flood as part of an argument that 'Theism leads to immorality is a 'Red Herring.'

The root 'moral(?) issue of religious conflicts is tribal regardless of whether different religious beliefs are involved or not.

The basis of ancient religions is indeed the natural human behavior of tribal identity.

Yes, there is a problem pf believers clinging to ancient religions and cultural identifies that do contribute to the tribal conflicts.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Islamist terrorists very much believe that they are carrying out allah's will

..and not their own will?
Have they no mind of their own? [rhetorical question]

People believe all sorts of things .. doesn't make them true.

 

[muhammad_isa]

They considered themselves soldiers of Allah..

"Allah" has no needs .. He does not need anybody to blow up innocent civilians.
People are duped by the devil, regardless of their religious persuasion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Theism, true or false should not be the scapegoat for Natural Human behavior throughout the history of humanity regardless of what one believes is moral. You also have to deal with the subjective perspective of what is moral in different cultures and history

Sure: theism doesn't create any new tendencies for good or bad, but what it does often do is act as a catalyst.

Anyone can have good ideas and bad ideas, but since people's Gods tend to agree with them, theism tends to break down any tendency to "sober second thought" where we re-evaluate our ideas to decide if they're actually good: it's "God's will," so not doing it isn't an option.

It gets especially insidious with the whole idea that "God works in mysterious ways": IOW, once we decide that God has endorsed our plan, we should stick to the plan even if it completely violates our normal understanding of reason and ethics.

... so theists and atheists will both come up with bad ideas, but at least atheists don't have these influences that try to quiet the voice in the back of our heads saying "hey - maybe you should rethink this."

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

..and not their own will?
Have they no mind of their own? [rhetorical question]

You can say that about anything and anyone. Including yourself. And you'ld only be missing the point.

People believe all sorts of things .. doesn't make them true.

You can certainly say that again.
But that too, is besides the point.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

"Allah" has no needs .. He does not need anybody to blow up innocent civilians.
People are duped by the devil, regardless of their religious persuasion.

Your no true scottsman, is noted.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Allah" has no needs .. He does not need anybody to blow up innocent civilians.

Do you think this means God doesn't ask anything of humans?

People are duped by the devil, regardless of their religious persuasion.

Maybe read your own words again, reflect on them, and ask how they could be applied to the issue of spousal rape that we discussed at length previously.

Is it possible that you have been duped by the devil? If no, what makes you immune?

 

[shunyadragon]

Sure: theism doesn't create any new tendencies for good or bad, but what it does often do is act as a catalyst.

considering the violent immoral nature of humanity, no catalyst is necessary;

Anyone can have good ideas and bad ideas, but since people's Gods tend to agree with them, theism tends to break down any tendency to "sober second thought" where we re-evaluate our ideas to decide if they're actually good: it's "God's will," so not doing it isn't an option.

It gets especially insidious with the whole idea that "God works in mysterious ways": IOW, once we decide that God has endorsed our plan, we should stick to the plan even if it completely violates our normal understanding of reason and ethics.

Nothing in the belief "God acts in mysterious ways has anything to do with whether Theism causes any more violence and immorality in the history of the natural nature of being human.

... so theists and atheists will both come up with bad ideas, but at least atheists don't have these influences that try to quiet the voice in the back of our heads saying "hey - maybe you should rethink this."

Yes, bad ideas and atheist movements have caused millions of deaths in wars and conflicts such as WWII and Cambodia.

The bottom line is that Theism has caused no more violence or immorality than any other belief including atheism.

The evidence is clear it is the tribal and natural nature of the fallible human that causes the violence and immorality of humanity.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Jesus, the man, and nothing but a man, was the perfect image of God. We never attained to it due to our lack of faith and selfishness.

Oh, so we're not made in the image of God.
So the Bible is wrong.
Cool.

 

[F1fan]

No, but the material world has elements of randomness and chaos. It can still be perfect even with the randomness and chaos.

Sure, a perfect pizza, a perfect kiss, a perfect ending to a movie, etc.

Human biology certainly isn't perfect. Nor are any of the Gods humans claim exist. We can do better in our God design, but we are limited by what exists in reality, like birth defects and cancers, flesh eating bacteria (God wasn't thinking of us when he designed that), mosquitos, etc.

I mean, kind of. All I need is a plausible explanation, and I have that.

And that sums us religious explanations, human creativity, not facts. the only facts are actual facts, like birth defects. If a human claims a creator God caused all things the human needs to explain birth defects and cancers, and that will inevitably color how we view that God. I's a daunting task that I am happy I don't have to do, reconciling an indifferent universe to ideas that a loving God exists.

Maybe a little. But it still makes sense.

A little closer to 99%. A lot of heavy assumptions need to be made for any religious scenario to make sense, and even then, it doesn't make sense. In the end how many of we fallible mortals would design a universe that includes cancers? I sure as hell would NOT!!!! But I must be missing the benefit of brest cancer killing a 38 year old mother of three.

In the beginning, there's one binary choice. Create or not. That choice to create has a lot of baggage that comes along with it. If you think you know better, how do you propose to go from an immaterial God-only reality to a reality that includes material multiplicity?

Magic is all we have in the religious world view. But I don't carry that sort of baggage. I prefer a simpler, more Occam's Razor assumption of matter/energy always existing in one form or another.

Well, that's basically what I'm describing. But God of course can intervene, but cannot stifle the chaos, nor completely neuter evil.

But your God is still the creator, and in the end the buck stops there. Morality can't be any more absolute if your God can't manage chaos and randomness. Why believe at all?

Kind of, but not really. God is the source and maintainer of everything. God supplies the vitality for everything on an ongoing basis.

Unless you are a 38 year old mother of three whose breast cancer is so aggressive no doctors can cure it. So your claim here isn't true on personal levels, and only in a broad sense. So how does God intervene, as you claim? Why allow cancers at all if you are a loving God that can intervene? I can see a person struggling with serious mental illness being allowed to die of cancer, but a mom of three? If there's any time for God to intervene that is it, wouldn't you agree?

God isn't material.

Right, it has to be since we can't detect any evidence of any gods existing. Of course the lack of evidence isn't helpful to believers who claim their version of God exists. How can they even know their version is correct versus some other version? They can't.

It's in the bible, but you have to know where to look. These are deep concepts that are not written or spoken of directly, usually.

So in other words, heavy doses of interpretation of vague verses. To my mind if the Bible isn't clear about any particular idea the fallible mortals doing the interpretation had better be careful not to play God an add content that isn't there. Isn't that a wise approach?