What about John 10:34?
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
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Does this mean Jesus is God?
- Thread starter YoursTrue
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What about John 10:34?
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
From my perspective, the religions that grew up from their teachings are one thing but the fundamentals of their teachings is the same.at the root. There's a small book I have "Oneness: Great Principles Shared by All Religions" that lists these. They include the Golden Rule, love thy neighbor, heaven is within, honor parents, speak truth, judge not, more blessed to give than to receive and so forth.
KW
Well-Known Member
Jesus says I and the Father are one.
Jesus also says if you have seen me you have seen the Father.
Three persons, one God.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Jesus went through all the 3 stages:
1) I am a Messenger of God
2) I am the Son of God
3) The Father and I are one
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That verse along with many other verses tells me that Jesus is not God.
On a purely logical basis, how could God 'send' Himself?
Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus said that God was greater than He was:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS God the Father?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God, and we well know that many people saw Jesus:
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:
John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.
Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that Jesus was making a claim to be God in these verses. Below is my interpretation of those verses.
John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I believe those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made by God since God created the heavens and the earth.
The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KW
Well-Known Member
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same in the sense that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares 'some' of the attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same.
However, Jesus does not share 'all' the attributes of God so Jesus is not exactly the same as God.
Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father since the Father possesses certain Attributes that the Son does not possess, as noted below.
The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God became flesh. God cannot become flesh because God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father since the Father possesses certain attributes that the Son does not possess: The Attributes that are unique to God: Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial
Nobody except God can have those Attributes.
However, the Father is in the Son.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that the Comforter is a person, a man, but not the third person of the Trinity.
I believe that Jesus was a Comforter, but there was another Comforter who Jesus sent from the Father, who was also the Spirit of truth.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
I do not believe that God is three persons, but I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense I believe in a Trinity; but I do not think that these three are part of God. Rather, they are separate entities that work together to reveal God to humanity. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY
Some people get lost in that chapter, so I wrote up a brief encapsulation of it:
There is only One God.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun. God remains in His own high place, and does not ever descend to earth.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which became visible and evident in Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Comforter, Counselor, Helper, and Advocate are all descriptive terms or titles used for the Bounty of God that came to us through the Holy Spirit.
KW
Well-Known Member
That is creative, but it is not Christian.
Jesus is God Incarnate. He is the Word.
He is not the same person as the Father.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
KW
Well-Known Member
That’s what happens when you abandon the Church Jesus started.
Jesus started a Church, he didn’t write a book. His Church wrote down his teachings.
If you want to know what these teachings are then you consult the Church. Jesus gave his authority to teach, guide and forgive sins to the Church.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
KW
Well-Known Member
Which Church? Do you mean the Catholic Church?
Which Church? Do you mean the Catholic Church?
Yes. That is the only 2000 year old Church.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
KW
Well-Known Member
Read Acts 15. I think you will see that Paul acknowledged and submitted to Peter and the Church leaders.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry, if I misled you because I did not mean to imply that Paul did not submit to Peter.
Some Baha'is believe tat Paul changed the original course of Christianity but that s a different subject.
I do not know the Bible very well and I do not know much about Church history.
Below are some excerpts that show the official Baha'i position on Peter and Paul.
“Regarding Mr. ...'s request, therefore, it seems appropriate to provide him with an extract from the House of Justice's letter cited above which contains the reference to the Research Department and the full text of the discussion of Peter and Paul. For clarity, we have preceded this extract by the incoming query to which this discussion is a response. Thus:
Incoming Query from an individual:
Also I would like to know if there is any statement in the writings of Bahá'u'lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá or the letters of the Guardian that state that Saint Paul "usurped the station of Peter, and that Saint Paul completely "changed the basic message of Jesus Christ." This is the substance of a section of a book recently published by George Ronald Pub. Co....
Response of the Universal House of Justice
Concerning the relationship of St. Peter and St. Paul, the Research Department has found nothing in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá or the Guardian which states that St. Paul "usurped the station of Peter" or that he "completely changed the basic message of Christ."
Of St. Peter, the beloved Guardian has written:
...let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that ... the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the apostles, is upheld and defended.
(The Promised Day is Come,[1] p. 109)
...Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused "the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth."
(The Promised Day is Come,[2] p. 110)
Now with regard to your questions. First concerning the statement of Jesus Christ "Thou art Peter and upon this rock...": this saying of Jesus establishes beyond any doubt the primacy of Peter and also the principle of succession, but is not explicit enough regarding the nature and functioning of the Church itself. The Catholics have read too much into that statement, and derived from it certain conclusions which are quite unjustifiable.
(From a letter dated 7 September1938 written on
behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)
In considering the relationship between St. Peter and St. Paul, one needs to bear in mind all of these various factors. High praise in accorded to them both in the Bahá'í Writings. A particularly pertinent statement by 'Abdu'l-Bahá appears on page 223 of the new publication Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá:[4]
One's conduct must be like the conduct of Paul, and one's faith similar to that of Peter.
(25 February 1980 written on behalf of the
Universal House of Justice to an individual)
'Abdu'l-Bahá referred to Paul, saying, "Paul, the Apostle, was in his early life an enemy of Christ, whilst later he became his most faithful servant." (Paris Talks, p. 147)
The Universal House of Justice, in a letter to a believer dated February 25, 1980, wrote: "The Research Department has found nothing in the writings of Bahá'u'lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá or the Guardian which states that St. Paul 'usurped the station of Peter' or that he 'changed the basic message of Peter' or that he 'changed the basic message of Christ.'"
Apostle Paul, a "False Teacher"?
KW
Well-Known Member
This is all just opinion from someone writing 1900 years later. Why do you give it any credibility?