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Does this scare you?

Semmelweis Reflex

Antivaxxer
Let the dead bury the was a teaching to focus more on the things of the sport and Christ. It does not invalidate Peters statement that the gospel was preached to the dead.

The sport? The spirit you mean? I didn't say that anything Christ said would invalidate what Peter said, the Bible is fallible, but harmonious throughout. The question becomes what is meant by the dead. (Luke 9:59-60) So, as I indicated, there are spiritually dead and literally dead. You yourself said things of the sport, er, spirit. How, then, does Peter use the word dead? The Jews and early Christians believed that when you were dead, that was it. No consciousness. No awareness. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
The sport? The spirit you mean? I didn't say that anything Christ said would invalidate what Peter said, the Bible is fallible, but harmonious throughout. The question becomes what is meant by the dead. (Luke 9:59-60) So, as I indicated, there are spiritually dead and literally dead. You yourself said things of the sport, er, spirit. How, then, does Peter use the word dead? The Jews and early Christians believed that when you were dead, that was it. No consciousness. No awareness. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

yeah I live in fat thumb and auto correct fail city.

It does pose an interesting question. The parable of Lazarus and the rich men fealty set the idea that people do think and feel after death. There was some concept of a spirit world as Christ told the their they would be in paradise.

We also have John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


Now just one of these alone would seem to be not referring to physical death. However we have many references. Peter tells us that God is no respecter of persons. If God sends a person to be born in a place where through no fault of their own they can’t hear the gospel that does not fit well. With this notion.

On the other hand if God allows all people to hear the gospel in this life or as a spirit in prison then they can all accept Christ in they choose. Baptisms for the dead (cited by Paul to Explain the resurrection) allow for them to make use of this.

Anyhow I would not say it’s nearly as clear as repent and be baptized statements, but it seems to be dealing with the physically dead.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Yes they do.But what I was getting at in my first post was.What ever afterlife is true.I am fine with either.Because of what different teachings I have been exposed to.:)
Ok, I see. I don't think it matters much if we " sleep" and come alive at the judgement or go to heaven immediately.
I understand where people get both from scripture.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are we supposed to look up what H.W. Armstrong means?

Please excuse me while I might look up to check/see what the first two letters are (in order) or, maybe not.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Jw's, Christadelphians, SDA's and H. W. Armstrong.These four religions.Believe that when you die your mind, body, and spirit.Cease to exist.Until you can be resurrected.Does that sound scary to you?It just to scare me.But I just to dabble in the Jw religion.And finally came to the conclusion.That if the afterlife is like the Jws say it's ok.But after I stop dabbling in the Jw religion.I became Methodist and thought I might want to go to heaven in some spirit form.Then it hit me.With my dabbling in the Jw religion.And becoming Methodist.I had come to accept both types of afterlife.What about you?
I believe the Bible clearly teaches that the spirit of Man exists and is active after death and before the Resurrection.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, what you described doesn't scare me, and I don't believe the spirit dies when a living person physically dies. Personally, I believe human spirits carry on in both the spiritual and physical realms, and many of these spirits are capable of intelligent communication and interaction with the living.
That is very close to what Baha'is believe, that when our physical bodies die our spirit (soul) continues to live and passes from this material world to the spiritual world. That is explained quite well in this book. I believe that spirits in the spiritual realm can communicate with people still living in the Earth realm although it is somewhat difficult, especially for those those spirits on the higher planes of existence.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Jw's, Christadelphians, SDA's and H. W. Armstrong.These four religions.Believe that when you die your mind, body, and spirit.Cease to exist.Until you can be resurrected.Does that sound scary to you?It just to scare me.But I just to dabble in the Jw religion.And finally came to the conclusion.That if the afterlife is like the Jws say it's ok.But after I stop dabbling in the Jw religion.I became Methodist and thought I might want to go to heaven in some spirit form.Then it hit me.With my dabbling in the Jw religion.And becoming Methodist.I had come to accept both types of afterlife.What about you?

I also have been influenced by JW theology and ideas from other places. That is not always a bad thing.
When it comes to the after life the body of Jesus was resurrected and was transformed into a spiritual body (not a spirit) but we don't know exactly what that means. (1John 3:2)
But of course there is only one sort of future resurrection in the Bible and even for the 144000 it is a bodily resurrection even though JWs have altered Romans 8:23 to make it say the opposite, but Romans 8:11 also agrees with Romans 8:23 so their changing of Romans 8:23 is futile really (Romans 8: 11, 23 )
But of course when someone is deceived they are deceived.
Jesus of course went to heaven with His spiritual body and was not invisible (unless He wanted to be) and was immortal and imperishable. We will be the same and so will be able to be in heaven. But of course the Bible does tell us that God and the Lamb will come to earth with the New Jerusalem (Rev 21) and God will be with His people, so our home will be on the New Earth, even if we can go to heaven.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jw's, Christadelphians, SDA's and H. W. Armstrong.These four religions.Believe that when you die your mind, body, and spirit.Cease to exist.Until you can be resurrected.Does that sound scary to you?
With all due respect to these groups, it sounds ridiculous to me that the physical body, after it dies, rises from the grave and comes back to life. This is not what the Bible teaches, it is a belief that came about from a misinterpretation of the scriptures.

Paul said that there are two different kinds of bodies:

--- The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
--- For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of God is in Heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (Heaven), which will last forever. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and live forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]


Read full chapter

An accurate depiction of what happens to our spirit (soul) when our physical bodies die was explained in this post:
#27 Trailblazer, 7 minutes ago
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The Jews and early Christians believed that when you were dead, that was it. No consciousness. No awareness. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

No they did not, and Eccles 9:5,10 does not say that. It is speaking about the dead knowing nothing about what is happening on earth. Sheol/Hades is not a place of activity as this earth is.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Paradise here is what the state of the righteous dead was called by Jews in Jesus time and for a long time before that. This also can be seen in Luke 16 where some of the dead are being comforted and others in torment while in Hades, before the final judgement.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
When I was a kid the JWs would come to visit my mother periodically and often leave their literature. When I was about 10 years old I overheard a nice elderly JW woman telling my mother that Jesus was resurrected after three days in his old body. I don't know how or why but I argued with her. I think my reasoning was that if someone sacrifices something, i.e. gives something in return of something then they don't take it back. We went around and around on the subject. I didn't know anything, but what she was saying just didn't make sense to me. Years later the JWs changed their thinking in line with my own.

My mother never ever read any of the literature they left with her. She would usually throw it in the back of the closet or something like that. I was an avid reader so I started saving the stuff thinking maybe some day I will get around to reading it. I never did, until I became interested in the Bible. I wanted to read it, to see if I could, to see what I personally thought of it and possibly to debunk Christianity, which I loathed due to its hypocrisy, history of violence, oppression and repression. So it was their Bible I used along with an old KJV my grandmother had left my mother. After a while I started reading some of the other stuff I had saved away and I became a believer.

I contacted the JWs and started a study and they left me with a great deal more literature. Stuff going back to the 1950s. I read it. I read their newly (at the time) published Proclaimers book when the "society" was admonishing them for not taking enough interest in it. I was considered an excellent student; I could correct elders on the Watchtower's own literature or name books they couldn't remember. But I eventually discontinued my study before becoming a baptized publisher due to their stance on blood transfusions. It wasn't necessarily that I didn't agree, it was that I thought it should be left up to the individual.

Since then I have learned a great deal. Including some things about their past and present that is most certainly a cause for alarm. Their similar bans on vaccinations, higher education and neutrality, their history as false prophets, and their covering up of child molestation in order not to bring reproach on Jehovah's name. Or fear of lawsuits which is often their prime motivation for self correction. The fact that their members are strongly discouraged from examining "apostate" information is very similar to the current worldly tactics using "misinformation," "racism," "science denier" etc to trick people into groupthink and not criticizing or questioning the prescribed narrative.

Most of their teachings I do agree with except when they read themselves into Bible prophecy, then it makes no sense at all. They have had this army of volunteers who research and that research I generally trust more than any other source.

I was wondering if you were a JW or just had similar views.
My youth was a bit similar to yours but I never did become a JW. But of course their teachings affected my understanding of the Bible for a long time and still does. But I am glad that I continued to study about the JWs and what the scriptures that they twist really say.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Jw's, Christadelphians, SDA's and H. W. Armstrong.These four religions.Believe that when you die your mind, body, and spirit.Cease to exist.Until you can be resurrected.Does that sound scary to you?It just to scare me.But I just to dabble in the Jw religion.And finally came to the conclusion.That if the afterlife is like the Jws say it's ok.But after I stop dabbling in the Jw religion.I became Methodist and thought I might want to go to heaven in some spirit form.Then it hit me.With my dabbling in the Jw religion.And becoming Methodist.I had come to accept both types of afterlife.What about you?
Is there really a religion called H W Armstrong? How extraordinary.
 

Bree

Active Member
Jw's, Christadelphians, SDA's and H. W. Armstrong.These four religions.Believe that when you die your mind, body, and spirit.Cease to exist.Until you can be resurrected.Does that sound scary to you?It just to scare me.But I just to dabble in the Jw religion.And finally came to the conclusion.That if the afterlife is like the Jws say it's ok.But after I stop dabbling in the Jw religion.I became Methodist and thought I might want to go to heaven in some spirit form.Then it hit me.With my dabbling in the Jw religion.And becoming Methodist.I had come to accept both types of afterlife.What about you?

What makes you think you can simply choose to enter Gods realm when you die?

Do you really believe you can just go where you want?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Jw's, Christadelphians, SDA's and H. W. Armstrong.These four religions.Believe that when you die your mind, body, and spirit.Cease to exist.Until you can be resurrected.Does that sound scary to you?It just to scare me.But I just to dabble in the Jw religion.And finally came to the conclusion.That if the afterlife is like the Jws say it's ok.But after I stop dabbling in the Jw religion.I became Methodist and thought I might want to go to heaven in some spirit form.Then it hit me.With my dabbling in the Jw religion.And becoming Methodist.I had come to accept both types of afterlife.What about you?
“They have in heaven a better and more enduring substance.”

Its basically true. After death the body returns to dust which means the mind as well. The spirit of God within us has our life transcripts and soul. The location of the personality after death, but before resurrection, is a mystery! After the "sleep of death" the salvaged will be given a new body upon the resurrection on the Mansion worlds. Its like our software survives and will be downloaded into a new hardware.
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Antivaxxer
I was wondering if you were a JW or just had similar views.
My youth was a bit similar to yours but I never did become a JW. But of course their teachings affected my understanding of the Bible for a long time and still does. But I am glad that I continued to study about the JWs and what the scriptures that they twist really say.

I never became a JW. I have never and would never be a part of any group, especially political or religious. I don't think they twist scriptures, only a fundamentalist Christian or Jew would say that. If I had to choose a religious organization to belong to it certainly wouldn't be one of those, it would be non-denominational because those groups are the ones that have twisted scripture for traditional apostacy. The problem with the JWs is more along the lines of being covertly institutional.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Only people who believe in the immaterial need to worry about such things. I mean, how many angels can actually dance on the head of a pin?
 

DKH

Member
Jw's, Christadelphians, SDA's and H. W. Armstrong.These four religions.Believe that when you die your mind, body, and spirit.Cease to exist.Until you can be resurrected.Does that sound scary to you?It just to scare me.But I just to dabble in the Jw religion.And finally came to the conclusion.That if the afterlife is like the Jws say it's ok.But after I stop dabbling in the Jw religion.I became Methodist and thought I might want to go to heaven in some spirit form.Then it hit me.With my dabbling in the Jw religion.And becoming Methodist.I had come to accept both types of afterlife.What about you?

No, this doesn't scare me. I see no reason that it should…

So, in my opinion: When, someone dies they cease to exist, there is no consciousness. They don't go to heaven or a non-existing hell. Hence, the only hope for those who have died or will die (to live again) is the resurrection of the dead. The Anointed One (Jesus) was the "first of the firstfruits" or the first human being who died (yet not deserving death), was resurrected and given eternal life. The "firstfruits" are those who are considered the bride of the Anointed (Jesus) and those invited to the wedding banquet (the chosen). These individuals will also be resurrected, but at different points during the end times. They also will be changed and given life, after death. The remainder of all humanity (who have died) will also be resurrected, but during the first thousand years of the Kingdom of God on the earth. However, to another physical life and begin to be taught the true ways of God and His only begotten Son. Those that accept these teaching will be changed as well. Those who reject the true teachings (and there will be many who do!) will suffer the second death and be put out of their misery. They cease to exist forever. Yet even they are shown mercy, because they would not be happy in the Kingdom of God.

So, there really isn't much to be scared of when we die. The plan of God gives all humans every possible chance to accept the correct path.
 
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