Don't lie to me...

[Kenny]

Humans aren't omnipotent, omniscient, or perfect, and often enough only selectively benevolent. The omnipotent, omniscient, perfect and benevolent God is in a position to perfectly know and perfectly do, but does neither.

And yet as a human that is not "omnipotent, omniscient, or perfect" are trying to judge everything that God has, is and will do.

Doesn't change the reality that as a human, one persons garbage is another's treasure. Certainly God has decided there are no garage humans... He sees them as an inheritance.

So it IS all about God's ego and it IS a transaction, it IS all conditional, you only get the benevolence if you worship and obey, like an all too human king.

That, if I may make a respectful observation, is a very small god. the tribal version from three thousand years ago, made in the image of [his] followers.

You seem to be looking for an "AHA" moment, but this doesn't qualify. I never said that you only get the benevolence if your worship and obey. You took it out of context.

Yes it does. You adore or you go to hell. You said so yourself.

Please quote where I said that or at least where you wanted me to say that.

Answer: to appease God's all too human ego.

???

You still haven't told me why the death was necessary, or how reality was different afterwards, or why whatever that difference was could not have been achieved bloodlessly, given an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect, BENEVOLENT being.

Because He had to overcome death so that He could resurrect us in our death cycle. He did try through commandments, but none could even do that.

When we see an innocent human killed because of something someone else did, that's when we say YUK!

Especially when it doesn't seem to have had any point, or changed anything in reality, and if there WAS any point then an omnipotent benevolent being could have achieved it bloodlessly with one snap of [his] omnipotent fingers.

Yes... it was YUK when Jesus was killed... but it was mankind that killed him and not the Father. I know that in today's society we want a "snap your fingers and it's done" philosophical world view but it is a little more complicated than that.

No. Since God is omnipotent and omniscient, the entire universe is solely God's and humans are only occupying their part of it on God's terms ─ once you're omnipotent all the bucks stop on your desk. The only way you can pass them is to renounce your omnipotence ─ and I haven't heard that's happened.

No... as I said before, this omnipotent God has the power to give the earth to mankind and to you and me free-will.

But WHAT did Jesus pay for, and why did it have to be PAID for? Omnipotence and benevolence don't require payment at any point, any more than we make our kids pay for their food or housing, or charge them for going to speak with their teachers.

I thought i addressed that. As a judge, He demands a payment. As the author of mercy, He let Jesus pay our bills.

God as human again? No, God's billing is explicit ─ whatever it is, [he] already knows it.

??? Are you surprised that when He created man He gave us some of His attributes? "Let us make man in our image and in our likeness". What does that mean to you?

In that case [he] does what I said ─ [he] heals them ALL, regardless of their sins, because [he] perfectly understands what went wrong with them.

If you read the Gospels.... who did Jesus not heal? And when He didn't, why?

Yes, God is omniscient and God is perfect so God has had perfect knowledge about the radioactivity since before [he] made the universe.

Yes... that's probably why He will have a new earth and a new heaven.

Should I find myself in a position of omnipotence and omniscience and benevolence, then I promise you those things won't happen, overpopulation won't happen, contamination of the seas won't happen, global warming won't happen, humans will subtly change to embrace the idea of a level playing field for all, care for all and the protection and admiration of the natural world ... and so on.

But you aren't. And I doubt that if you knew as much as God did, that you would actually have a better plan. But, again, here you are as a human with limited knowledge judging and all-knowing God.

 

[blü 2]

And yet as a human that is not "omnipotent, omniscient, or perfect" are trying to judge everything that God has, is and will do.

First to understand it, and then to judge it, yes. This isn't the sort of stuff to take for granted.

Doesn't change the reality that as a human, one persons garbage is another's treasure. Certainly God has decided there are no garage humans... He sees them as an inheritance.

I'd find that an attractive idea, but I see no evidence of it on earth. To my observation, the world behaves exactly as if God were only an idea held by an individual.

You seem to be looking for an "AHA" moment, but this doesn't qualify. I never said that you only get the benevolence if your worship and obey. You took it out of context.

This is where looking at reality confuses things. The believers in God A don't appear to be better or worse people than the believers in God B, or Gods C, D, E, F and G, &c. They don't appear to have better luck, or to be spared misfortune, at any rate different to other believers or to nonbelievers.

And I still don't understand why Jesus had to die, or what difference his death made in reality, or why human sacrifice isn't an intrinsically repulsive idea anyway, let alone why a benevolent omnipotent being could possibly want one.

(I don't begrudge anyone their belief if it helps them deal with the world and to act with decency to others. But the theology ─ the danged theology!)

 

[thomas t]

EH, I am completely baffled by the number of posts you start that have God related themes,
[...] Why do so many of your posts include God and how unfair and unjust he is if you don't even believe in him? Seriously????

@Evangelicalhumanist was starting a thread about what he lived. It had to do with religion. That's totally fine in a board where religious themes are getting dicussed.
It was a religious song he wrote about and he tried to set this in context with what he lived. That's normal, I think.

 

[PureX]

The Children's Aid didn't "care" about me. They are an agency with workers who get paid.

Everyone in our culture has to be paid for their time, to survive. That doesn't mean they didn't choose the work they are doing, or that they don't do it because they care about the people they serve. I feel sad for you if you have allowed yourself to become so cynical and resentful that you actually can't acknowledge that.

And the many, many foster homes I was in -- none kept me around for more than a few months. I was tossed from family to family until finally relegated to institutional care between 8 years old until I was dumped on the street by the Children's Aid at 17.

Nevertheless, they did get you out of the violent home you were born into, and they did try to find you a better place to grow up. Humans aren't gods. And gods aren't our puppeteers. To the extent that God's love and forgiveness and kindness and generosity manifest in this world, it will manifest through us. We have to decide to embody these characteristics with our own minds actions. And your resentment and cynicism will only serve to stifle those inclinations. Don't let the poison that you endured from others, poison you, in turn.

 

[PureX]

Those children's things don't really care. Some might, but it's essentially a beaurocracy of a revolving door of changing faces. And people can't care too much. That care must stop and end at a professional relationship. Any deeper than that and it's unethical and illegal. And you can tell. It's not like a good friend or aunt who cares and can share those deeper bonds of care.

See the post above.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Funny thing, I was listening to sort of philosophical argument about religion the other day, and suddenly heard music that I have know just about literally all of my life:

Jesus loves me, this I know
For the Bible tells me so
Little ones to Him belong
They are weak, but He is strong

Like many of you, I was taught this when I was very little, and the words and music are indelibly imprinted on my mind. (This is not all that strange -- as someone who loves to act and sing, I have a fabulous memory for music and lyrics. I can remember things, even in other languages, that I learned 60 years ago and more.)

But back to the lie...maybe it was just this simple how Christianity lost me as a customer (or tithe payer, which I think they prefer). You see, when I was very, very little, my step-father used to enjoy drinking himself stupid, and then coming home and beating up his wife (my mother) and me. I lived with them in this horror from the ages of 4 to 7, and at 5 and 7, he did in fact nearly kill me. Then the Children's Aid won a court order that severed me from them forever.

But, what happens to a kid who hears this really important, so-called truth: that there is an immensely powerful being who loves me, and is so much stronger than everybody else that he can also save me? And then that kid goes home, likely to be beaten up by somebody 8 times his size, possibly leading to another trip to the hospital -- and who actually asks this Jesus for help?

What is he likely to wind up believing? That Jesus loves him? That Jesus is strong enough to stop the hurt? Or that none of that seems to be true?

And how do you rate the likelihood that this bull**** cost the church another believer?

Dear Evangelicalhumanist

I have never heard this song (was raised atheist, in secular environment) but I do very much see your point (the dissonance between your reality and what you were being taught) and am truly sorry to hear of your traumatic childhood.

The way I see it is that scriptures do not address worldliness and when people try to make them do so, the results seem quite destructive. The comfort that scripture has to offer is spiritual, not worldly and, that was of little help to you then.

In regards to the practice of religion; I’m not sure I feel that it’s for children (I let my own learn of religions and their histories, but kept them away from any rituals or preachings of “truths”, etc.). Ideally, I think faith is something personal and that religion is for those who personally feel a calling/pull towards it. Some children may, but I suspect that most children do not.


If I may, I’d like to address a different part of your issue now though.

I read that you have found closure in regards to your childhood and I’m not sure what that implies in your opinion, but I would have hoped that “closure” might have granted you greater sense of inner harmony, emotional balance and peace of mind.

I am not saying that you are “wrong” to despise as you do - when I said that I see your point, I really do see it! I understand why you dislike religion and why you think of religious people as gullible. But I also see how your strong dislike may still be holding you prisoner of your perpetrator.

And, as the gullible quite likely will not be forewarned by your experiences and hatred has no power but over those who carry it, I find myself wondering: do you not wish to free yourself from it and find inner peace?

I worry that it’d be painful to hear (if so, pls forgive and ignore my input) but in my view, that is when you’ll truly be free from your stepfather.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[pearl]

It's not God who lets us down, it is our idea of God that lets us down.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's not God who lets us down, it is our idea of God that lets us down.

Well of course, since the only God there is is our idea God.

 

[pearl]

Well of course, since the only God there is is our idea God.

Chalk one up for the cute play on words.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Chalk one up for the cute play on words.

It may be that, but it is something much more, besides.

I do not say this lightly. I am an observant person, and I am also an analytical person -- one who operates by analyzing and reasoning about what I can see. And what I see is the the only hint of any "god" is that a lot of humans really hope that there is one. There are probably many reasons for this, but I think the main ones are an inability to imagine a purpose for one's own life, and therefore the need for some purpose established outside of oneself, and second, the utter dread of what happens when this life comes to its necessary end.

For the atheist, it is very easy to consider the second question: what it will be like is precisely the same as it was before I came to exist -- and that is not a scary thought. Look back in history, all of it that you can remember, and tell me how horrible it was for YOU when Jesus was born, or when the Crusades happened, or Henry VIII reigned, or during the American Civil War. And you will find...nothing.

And as for a person, the atheist remembers this: that one stone can make ripples across an entire lake. Granted, the effect lessens the further away from the stone that they get, but they are still not zero. Thus, the atheist can try to remember that what he does will cause ripples through humanity after she is gone -- and that kind of thinking can help establish a purpose of one's own.

It is a very sad thought for me that many pious people, so concerned about "the life hereafter," fail to live the life they've got well -- the only life that they can be truly sure of.

 

[PureX]

It may be that, but it is something much more, besides.

I do not say this lightly. I am an observant person, and I am also an analytical person -- one who operates by analyzing and reasoning about what I can see. And what I see is the the only hint of any "god" is that a lot of humans really hope that there is one. There are probably many reasons for this, but I think the main ones are an inability to imagine a purpose for one's own life, and therefore the need for some purpose established outside of oneself, and second, the utter dread of what happens when this life comes to its necessary end.

For the atheist, it is very easy to consider the second question: what it will be like is precisely the same as it was before I came to exist -- and that is not a scary thought. Look back in history, all of it that you can remember, and tell me how horrible it was for YOU when Jesus was born, or when the Crusades happened, or Henry VIII reigned, or during the American Civil War. And you will find...nothing.

And as for a person, the atheist remembers this: that one stone can make ripples across an entire lake. Granted, the effect lessens the further away from the stone that they get, but they are still not zero. Thus, the atheist can try to remember that what he does will cause ripples through humanity after she is gone -- and that kind of thinking can help establish a purpose of one's own.

What I find strange is that it has so far apparently not occurred to you that these possibilities are not mutually exclusive. That 'purpose' is a matter of relative perspective. And in our case, of a very limited relative perspective. Or that the meaningless oblivion you imagine, and the magical hereafter that others may imagine, are being spun from, and into, the same reality, and for the same reasons.

 

[thomas t]

Can you tell me, @Evangelicalhumanist , who taught you this lullaby?
Your parents?
Or did your parents go to some sort of church and you learned it there? If so, how did they react to the domestic violence in your family?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Can you tell me, @Evangelicalhumanist , who taught you this lullaby?
Your parents?
Or did your parents go to some sort of church and you learned it there? If so, how did they react to the domestic violence in your family?

I cannot tell you that: as a defence mechanism (so said my child psychologist when I was in the home for emotionally disturbed children in Ottawa), that I successfull repressed most memories of what happened to me. I remember snippets, nothing more. Not where I lived, not what my mother and step-father, or younger half-brother, looked like or sounded like or said. I have vague memories of Sunday school, which actually were reinforced when I entered my first orphanage at age 7.

However, as an extreme musicophile, I remember every single piece of music, and most of the words, that I've ever heard. Hymns from church, all of them (which surprises a lot of people, because on those few occasions, weddings and the like, when I do go to church, this atheist knows the hymns better than most of the Christians.

As to how anyone reacted, I believe that I was given into custody of the Children''s Aid by the court, following a hospital stay for the second beating that nearly killed me. Beating children back then, in Toronto's poorer neighbourhoods, wasn't considered "domestic violence" so much. You know, "spare the rod," and all the Biblical rot.

 

[thomas t]

I cannot tell you that: as a defence mechanism (so said my child psychologist when I was in the home for emotionally disturbed children in Ottawa), that I successfull repressed most memories of what happened to me. I remember snippets, nothing more. Not where I lived, not what my mother and step-father, or younger half-brother, looked like or sounded like or said. I have vague memories of Sunday school, which actually were reinforced when I entered my first orphanage at age 7.

However, as an extreme musicophile, I remember every single piece of music, and most of the words, that I've ever heard. Hymns from church, all of them (which surprises a lot of people, because on those few occasions, weddings and the like, when I do go to church, this atheist knows the hymns better than most of the Christians.

As to how anyone reacted, I believe that I was given into custody of the Children''s Aid by the court, following a hospital stay for the second beating that nearly killed me. Beating children back then, in Toronto's poorer neighbourhoods, wasn't considered "domestic violence" so much. You know, "spare the rod," and all the Biblical rot.

Thank you very much for the explanation. Must have been religious people around so then.
Must have been terrible for you to go through all of these horrible experiences you've made.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Thank you very much for the explanation. Must have been religious people around so then.
Must have been terrible for you to go through all of these horrible experiences you've made.

Might have been terrible, but that's the beauty of repression of memory -- I don't remember at all. Absolutely nothing.

The worst result was that I was terribly, terribly needy for "love," and as a younger adult, I must have been icky to have been around. Anybody who merely smiled at me, let alone sleep with me, I decided I was in love with forever. As I'm sure you understand, that's not really very workable. That took me years to work through.

 

[thomas t]

Might have been terrible, but that's the beauty of repression of memory -- I don't remember at all. Absolutely nothing.

The worst result was that I was terribly, terribly needy for "love," and as a younger adult, I must have been icky to have been around. Anybody who merely smiled at me, let alone sleep with me, I decided I was in love with forever. As I'm sure you understand, that's not really very workable. That took me years to work through.

thank you for sharing this.
I remember a friend of mine also telling me that she has absolutely no memory (except three minor exceptions) of her past when she was aged 10 and younger. She even forgot her native toung. She had to (re-)learn some words of it later to at least know some words of it.

But I personally think: it's still horrible. I suspect that your environment wronged you. You said you still remember "hymns at church"? So there must have been a church that your family went to, it seems, and they all couldn't help but terribly ignore the horrible violence that you suffered, it seems.
Church failure, as I would call it.

 

[Kenny]

First to understand it, and then to judge it, yes. This isn't the sort of stuff to take for granted.

That's true... but when you think you can do better than God, in which we all would have to agree that we don't know everything, I think that is a little over the top. Although, I would agree that understanding it would be important as with asking questions.

I'd find that an attractive idea, but I see no evidence of it on earth. To my observation, the world behaves exactly as if God were only an idea held by an individual.

To see it, you would have to look for it.

For and example, John Newton, slave trader and a captain of ships, turned abolitionist.

Angie, age 17, with gun in her hand with two bullets, one for her child and one for herself while pregnant because if living with her drug addict boyfriend is life, she wasn't going to have it. Now being sent all over the US working for Harris Corporation - married and happy.

Or myself, ready to commit adultery turned faithful and helping lives such as Angie to have find transformation.

There are innumerable examples to many to count.

This is where looking at reality confuses things. The believers in God A don't appear to be better or worse people than the believers in God B, or Gods C, D, E, F and G, &c. They don't appear to have better luck, or to be spared misfortune, at any rate different to other believers or to nonbelievers.

And I still don't understand why Jesus had to die, or what difference his death made in reality, or why human sacrifice isn't an intrinsically repulsive idea anyway, let alone why a benevolent omnipotent being could possibly want one.

(I don't begrudge anyone their belief if it helps them deal with the world and to act with decency to others. But the theology ─ the danged theology!)

Again... you have to ask. It isn't luck, it is transformative involvement. Personally, I have dozens and dozens of examples.

Human sacrifice is repulsive, yet the sacrifice of a man throwing himself on a grenade to save his brothers-in-arms is extolled and glorified. One person said, "No greater love a man than when he gives his life for another", happens all the time.

Yes, everything is a double edge. Money is great, but the love of money is not. Drugs are life saving even as it has killed through overdoses. Relationship through faith is life transforming even as theological religion can enslave.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

All lies and jest,
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...

Quotes old Simon & Garfunkel tune and thinks he's said something profound (but hasn't...)

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Incorrect. The Children's Aid didn't "care" about me. They are an agency with workers who get paid. And the many, many foster homes I was in -- none kept me around for more than a few months. I was tossed from family to family until finally relegated to institutional care between 8 years old until I was dumped on the street by the Children's Aid at 17.

Just out of curiosity...WHY do you keep seeking metaphorical salvation through human beings?

Your stepfather was a horrible person...And a sinful human.
The Children's Aid was a person...And a sinful huamn.
The foster homes were owned by...Sinful humans.

There's no guarantee of joy on earth. The Bible NEVER promises that. Any belief system that does is a complete lie that, at best, will only provide momentary "joy" before tragic downfall.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Just out of curiosity...WHY do you keep seeking metaphorical salvation through human beings?

Your stepfather was a horrible person...And a sinful human.
The Children's Aid was a person...And a sinful huamn.
The foster homes were owned by...Sinful humans.

There's no guarantee of joy on earth. The Bible NEVER promises that. Any belief system that does is a complete lie that, at best, will only provide momentary "joy" before tragic downfall.

Yes, but you see, as I don't believe in any other life, it falls to me to try to make the only one I have as good as it can be. Nobody else is going to do that for me.