Don't try and say your omnimax god has a reason to allow suffering

[Beaudreaux]

If other beings' whims did not exist, then God would not create. So it is very different.
But your position is that God could have ignored those other beings, but chose to create according to their whims anyway. And somehow you think this makes God the culprit. There really isn't an argument here; Just you insisting that God is the meanie.

I am not saying God is a "meanie". I am saying that God, if he exists and is all powerful, is the most evil sentient being in existence, who stands by idly while millions of his creation suffer needlessly. You seem to think that these made up lesser beings are the "culprits" because they asked God to do something and he did it. You portray God as a Nazi who is only following orders, but even the Nazi officers could claim that they were forced into their atrocities. No one can force God to do anything.

My original argument still stands. God is simply supplying what others are asking for. God doesn't have to do it, but that is irrelevant. God is simply and faultlessly permitting free will.

OK, you cannot bring forward one being who asked for creation to be this way. And even if you could, how is it fair that God decides to make millions of children suffer because something asked him to do so?

 

[Paraprakrti]

I am not saying God is a "meanie". I am saying that God, if he exists and is all powerful, is the most evil sentient being in existence, who stands by idly while millions of his creation suffer needlessly. You seem to think that these made up lesser beings are the "culprits" because they asked God to do something and he did it. You portray God as a Nazi who is only following orders, but even the Nazi officers could claim that they were forced into their atrocities. No one can force God to do anything.

In this case, God is the "Nazi" who willingly follows the orders of the Jews. It is not one set of beings who asks God to make another set suffer. And it really isn't that the "Jews" ask for suffering directly. Obviously, they don't realize what they are asking for, but it constitutes suffering nonetheless. I agree that God isn't forced into anything. And maybe the problem, as you see it, has a lot to do with the amount of significance you put on suffering. Apparently, for God it is not significant enough to curb the free agency of these lesser beings.

OK, you cannot bring forward one being who asked for creation to be this way. And even if you could, how is it fair that God decides to make millions of children suffer because something asked him to do so?

I would argue that the millions of children you mention are also culprits. And, as I said above, no one asks for suffering directly. We've decided, paradoxically, to try and become our own gods, so to speak. By that, I mean, we are endeavoring to be independent controllers and enjoyers. This situation invariably leads to competition and the capacity to encroach upon each other. A very important part of this view is that humans aren't the only players. Every living entity is engaged. So it isn't only humans who encroach and cause each other suffering. Microscopic beings who cause us sickness are also engaged.

 

[Heneni]

When Christian apologists make comparisons like the above, do they forget, according to their own mythology, that their god is all-powerful? All-powerful means: god makes the rules. It means: there doesn't need to be suffering unless he wants it that way. To make someone suffer needlessly isn't love. So take your pick; is he all-loving or all-powerful, because he can't be both. Unless you think "love" is to inflict unnecessary suffering.

Christians insist that it must be necessary for god to make us suffer, that it must be for our own good. Well then he's not all-powerful is he? Consider this:
You say, "Perhaps x can only be achieved through suffering."
Well guess what? Your all-powerful god could make x achievable with no suffering necessary, no matter what x is. Remember: all-powerful. He makes the rules.

So don't try and say god has a good reason to allow suffering, that it's beyond our understanding, and then turn around and say he's all-loving and all-powerful. It's a contradiction.

God is all powerful! Yes
Therefore god can remove all suffering. Yes
So then for him to do that what must he do:

Remove all people that have ever said anything nasty to anybody.
Remove all peple that have ever done anything nasty to anybody
Remove all people that have ever polluted the environment and caused suffering to animals.
Remove all goverments
Remove all medicines that cause suffering in order to heal
Remove all legs that suffer because they dont have a car to drive
Remove all cars that pump poison into the air
Remove all food and drink that poison our bodies that we love to chomp away on
Remove your mouth if you cant stop eating them
Basically, its easy for god to get rid of suffering, he just needs to get rid of you.

He makes the rules

He is all loving and does not want anything or anybody innocent to suffer. So he will simply remove the guilty.

Heneni

 

[richardlowellt]

God is all powerful! Yes
Therefore god can remove all suffering. Yes
So then for him to do that what must he do:

Remove all people that have ever said anything nasty to anybody.
Remove all peple that have ever done anything nasty to anybody
Remove all people that have ever polluted the environment and caused suffering to animals.
Remove all goverments
Remove all medicines that cause suffering in order to heal
Remove all legs that suffer because they dont have a car to drive
Remove all cars that pump poison into the air
Remove all food and drink that poison our bodies that we love to chomp away on
Remove your mouth if you cant stop eating them
Basically, its easy for god to get rid of suffering, he just needs to get rid of you.

He makes the rules

He is all loving and does not want anything or anybody innocent to suffer. So he will simply remove the guilty.

Heneni

So lets start with a reasonable list of things this "all loving God" could do to at least ease our suffering.

1.) Design a better body for his creations, one that had a rib cage that fully enclosed the all the vital organs.

2.) Design a body that is more than a fragile bag of liquid easily punctured, causing death.

3.) design a body a little more sturdy so that a mer fall will not make us suffer or die. Or, design a planet who's gravity is not so strong as to cause us fatal injuries should we trip and fall.

4.) Design a body capable of resisting all those little parasitic horrors you created, or don't flood the planet with these parasitic horrors.

5.) Show yourself to your creations more frequently so that they get the idea that there is in fact only one true God, this of course would eliminate all those nasty confrontations about who has the correct God.

6.) Create humans with a limited breeding cycle, that way you avoid over population and starvation.

7.) Create a planet with a smaller climatic range so almost the entire planet can be used to grow food and provide a more comfortable environment for your beloved creations.

8.) Create a planet who's crust has already cooled so as to avoid volcanos, earthquakes, and Tsunamis.

9.) Further reduction of severe climatic changes so as to avoid tornadoes, hurricanes, and cyclones.

10.) Create all living things as plant eaters only thereby eliminating organism's from devouring each other.

Just a short list that would seem to fall easily into the abilities of a divine entity. I wonder why I and not he thought of these things to at least ease the suffering of his beloved creations?

 

[Heneni]

So lets start with a reasonable list of things this "all loving God" could do to at least ease our suffering.

1.) Design a better body for his creations, one that had a rib cage that fully enclosed the all the vital organs.

2.) Design a body that is more than a fragile bag of liquid easily punctured, causing death.

3.) design a body a little more sturdy so that a mer fall will not make us suffer or die. Or, design a planet who's gravity is not so strong as to cause us fatal injuries should we trip and fall.

4.) Design a body capable of resisting all those little parasitic horrors you created, or don't flood the planet with these parasitic horrors.

5.) Show yourself to your creations more frequently so that they get the idea that there is in fact only one true God, this of course would eliminate all those nasty confrontations about who has the correct God.

6.) Create humans with a limited breeding cycle, that way you avoid over population and starvation.

7.) Create a planet with a smaller climatic range so almost the entire planet can be used to grow food and provide a more comfortable environment for your beloved creations.

8.) Create a planet who's crust has already cooled so as to avoid volcanos, earthquakes, and Tsunamis.

9.) Further reduction of severe climatic changes so as to avoid tornadoes, hurricanes, and cyclones.

10.) Create all living things as plant eaters only thereby eliminating organism's from devouring each other.

Just a short list that would seem to fall easily into the abilities of a divine entity. I wonder why I and not he thought of these things to at least ease the suffering of his beloved creations?

Hmmm.....well it seems like you are saying to eliminate the current suffering god would have to recreate. And that would mean all that currently is, must be undone. That means you and me too.

 

[richardlowellt]

Hmmm.....well it seems like you are saying to eliminate the current suffering god would have to recreate. And that would mean all that currently is, must be undone. That means you and me too.

No it means he should have done a better job in the beginning, but what it really means is that if there was such a thing as God, these are the logical steps he would have taken, since they were not taken it is unreasonable and illogical to believe such an entity exists.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

So lets start with a reasonable list of things this "all loving God" could do to at least ease our suffering.

1.) Design a better body for his creations, one that had a rib cage that fully enclosed the all the vital organs.

2.) Design a body that is more than a fragile bag of liquid easily punctured, causing death.

3.) design a body a little more sturdy so that a mer fall will not make us suffer or die. Or, design a planet who's gravity is not so strong as to cause us fatal injuries should we trip and fall.

4.) Design a body capable of resisting all those little parasitic horrors you created, or don't flood the planet with these parasitic horrors.

In the world your looking for not one of these would be necessary. Who would get hurt or killed or fall or . . . etc. Well no one would because we would all be perfect and never do anything wrong because doing something wrong causes unnecessary suffering.

5.) Show yourself to your creations more frequently so that they get the idea that there is in fact only one true God, this of course would eliminate all those nasty confrontations about who has the correct God.

No need for this either we would all be born with the innate knowing that God exists.

6.) Create humans with a limited breeding cycle, that way you avoid over population and starvation.

Birth would be an unnecessary suffering since no one would die, because dieing would be unnecessary suffering. There would be no need for birth to sustain the population.

7.) Create a planet with a smaller climatic range so almost the entire planet can be used to grow food and provide a more comfortable environment for your beloved creations.

Why would we need to eat? hunger would be an unnecessary suffering which god could avoid. The work to grow the food would be unnecessary suffering also.

8.) Create a planet who's crust has already cooled so as to avoid volcanos, earthquakes, and Tsunamis.

9.) Further reduction of severe climatic changes so as to avoid tornadoes, hurricanes, and cyclones.

10.) Create all living things as plant eaters only thereby eliminating organism's from devouring each other.

No need to have any of these things just create a static planet with a static atmosphere that never changes and eating would be unnecessary.

Why would an omnimax god bother going through all the trouble of creating anything?

 

[richardlowellt]

In the world your looking for not one of these would be necessary. Who would get hurt or killed or fall or . . . etc. Well no one would because we would all be perfect and never do anything wrong because doing something wrong causes unnecessary suffering.



No need for this either we would all be born with the innate knowing that God exists.



Birth would be an unnecessary suffering since no one would die, because dieing would be unnecessary suffering. There would be no need for birth to sustain the population.



Why would we need to eat? hunger would be an unnecessary suffering which god could avoid. The work to grow the food would be unnecessary suffering also.



No need to have any of these things just create a static planet with a static atmosphere that never changes and eating would be unnecessary.

Why would an omnimax god bother going through all the trouble of creating anything?

That's it, now I think you've got it!!!

 

[Heneni]

No it means he should have done a better job in the beginning, but what it really means is that if there was such a thing as God, these are the logical steps he would have taken, since they were not taken it is unreasonable and illogical to believe such an entity exists.

Well should haves is dead and buried. You are here and you are already created and people are suffering. Should have's dont matter now, only what god can now possibly do to get rid of suffering.

The question as far as i understand is not did god screw up and now we are suffering because of it.

Since god is all powerful, he cant screw up. To screw up means he created something wrong, and that would mean there must be another god that sets the standard for what a creation should be like. Then god would no longer be god.

Whatever he does is perfect in his own eyes. You will have to convince him that he screwed up. Thats if you think the creation can tell the creator what to do. Gutsy but arrogant...dont ya think! God is not subject to his creation. God doenst have to listen and obey his creation. God does what he wants to do with his creation. The one lot see him as loving the other wants to tell him what he should do to be loving. They want to be god instead of enjoying god.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Why would an omnimax god bother going through all the trouble of creating anything?

Because its no trouble at all.

 

[richardlowellt]

The question as far as i understand is not did god screw up and now we are suffering because of it.

But the fact is God did screw up and we are suffering because of it.


Since god is all powerful, he cant screw up. To screw up means he created something wrong, and that would mean there must be another god that sets the standard for what a creation should be like. Then god would no longer be god.

Whatever he does is perfect in his own eyes. You will have to convince him that he screwed up. Thats if you think the creation can tell the creator what to do. Gutsy but arrogant...dont ya think! God is not subject to his creation. God doenst have to listen and obey his creation. God does what he wants to do with his creation. The one lot see him as loving the other wants to tell him what he should do to be loving. They want to be god instead of enjoying god.

Heneni[/QUOTE]

 

[richardlowellt]

Since god is all powerful, he cant screw up. To screw up means he created something wrong, and that would mean there must be another god that sets the standard for what a creation should be like. Then god would no longer be god.

He may be all powerful but he did screw up, and yes he did create something wrong, the entire cosmos and all that it contains.

Whatever he does is perfect in his own eyes. You will have to convince him that he screwed up. Thats if you think the creation can tell the creator what to do. Gutsy but arrogant...dont ya think! God is not subject to his creation. God doenst have to listen and obey his creation. God does what he wants to do with his creation. The one lot see him as loving the other wants to tell him what he should do to be loving. They want to be god instead of enjoying god.

Yes God does do what he wants with his creations even if it involves pain and suffering.

Lets say you love dogs, so you buy one, a little puppy, you love this little puppy, so-----would you mix ground glass into his food, keep him outside in the freezing cold, expose him to diseased animals that maybe have rabies? You would do non of these things because you love this little dog and know that he trusts you to not cause him to suffer and do harm to him. This makes you a whole lot nicer person than this demon God you speak of.

Heneni[/QUOTE]

 

[Heneni]

Since god is all powerful, he cant screw up. To screw up means he created something wrong, and that would mean there must be another god that sets the standard for what a creation should be like. Then god would no longer be god.

He may be all powerful but he did screw up, and yes he did create something wrong, the entire cosmos and all that it contains.

Whatever he does is perfect in his own eyes. You will have to convince him that he screwed up. Thats if you think the creation can tell the creator what to do. Gutsy but arrogant...dont ya think! God is not subject to his creation. God doenst have to listen and obey his creation. God does what he wants to do with his creation. The one lot see him as loving the other wants to tell him what he should do to be loving. They want to be god instead of enjoying god.

Yes God does do what he wants with his creations even if it involves pain and suffering.

Lets say you love dogs, so you buy one, a little puppy, you love this little puppy, so-----would you mix ground glass into his food, keep him outside in the freezing cold, expose him to diseased animals that maybe have rabies? You would do non of these things because you love this little dog and know that he trusts you to not cause him to suffer and do harm to him. This makes you a whole lot nicer person than this demon God you speak of.

Heneni

[/quote]

PS: Richard PM me if you need advice on how to do that quote 'thang' Im free (but im not easy)

Richard, ok....so ya think that god created earth and mixed glass inbetween our puppy food.

I think the analogy is sweet. However puppy's are not in the same food chain as us. The glass could be broken by somebody else other than god and the only legitimate food for puppies is 'taste and see that the lord is good'. 'A man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of god'

If little puppies propagate then little puppies must live where the proverbial natural disaster paw paw is less likely to strike. Its only a disaster for the puppy, but according to mother earth she is doing her 'thang' to keep it all in balance seeing that we disturb the equalibrium all the time. In fact earth is designed to try and keep herself alive with a nice equilibrium, is that not nice of god, or is that unacceptable)

 

[richardlowellt]

PS: Richard PM me if you need advice on how to do that quote 'thang' Im free (but im not easy)

Richard, ok....so ya think that god created earth and mixed glass inbetween our puppy food.

I think the analogy is sweet. However puppy's are not in the same food chain as us. The glass could be broken by somebody else other than god and the only legitimate food for puppies is 'taste and see that the lord is good'. 'A man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of god'

If little puppies propagate then little puppies must live where the proverbial natural disaster paw paw is less likely to strike. Its only a disaster for the puppy, but according to mother earth she is doing her 'thang' to keep it all in balance seeing that we disturb the equalibrium all the time. In fact earth is designed to try and keep herself alive with a nice equilibrium, is that not nice of god, or is that unacceptable)[/QUOTE]

I guess you just don't get what I'm drive at. You are God to the puppy, would YOU mix ground glass into his food, would YOU leave him out in the cold, would YOU purposely do anything to hurt this puppy of cause it to suffer? Earth was nor designed, it was formed naturally as all other planet are formed. I'll try and simplify this a bit, lets just take oner topic. Why would God create a planet so it would take millions of years for it's crust to cool, as a cooling crust creates volcanos, earthquakes and tsunamis?

 

[richardlowellt]

PS: Richard PM me if you need advice on how to do that quote 'thang' Im free (but im not easy)

I was at one point able to make this quote thang work, but it seems to have abandoned me, much like this God "Thang"

 

[Heneni]

PS: Richard PM me if you need advice on how to do that quote 'thang' Im free (but im not easy)

Richard, ok....so ya think that god created earth and mixed glass inbetween our puppy food.

I think the analogy is sweet. However puppy's are not in the same food chain as us. The glass could be broken by somebody else other than god and the only legitimate food for puppies is 'taste and see that the lord is good'. 'A man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of god'

If little puppies propagate then little puppies must live where the proverbial natural disaster paw paw is less likely to strike. Its only a disaster for the puppy, but according to mother earth she is doing her 'thang' to keep it all in balance seeing that we disturb the equalibrium all the time. In fact earth is designed to try and keep herself alive with a nice equilibrium, is that not nice of god, or is that unacceptable)

I guess you just don't get what I'm drive at. You are God to the puppy, would YOU mix ground glass into his food, would YOU leave him out in the cold, would YOU purposely do anything to hurt this puppy of cause it to suffer? Earth was nor designed, it was formed naturally as all other planet are formed. I'll try and simplify this a bit, lets just take oner topic. Why would God create a planet so it would take millions of years for it's crust to cool, as a cooling crust creates volcanos, earthquakes and tsunamis?

Kryke, the problem with analogies is it never works. I am not god and therefore comparing what i do to a puppy and what god does to us is two completely different things.

What DOES god DO to us. Is he actively in here trying to mess things up for us. I mean is god breaking the glass and putting it into our food.

God created the earth which is a safe place for us to live, and thats why we are here and not on mars. Can you give him creadit for that. Or is this planet not good enough. I mean come on. Without this planet you would pop like a corn in space. This earth was created to suit what it is you need to survive. But survival seems to be the problem, not because god is breaking glass and putting it in our food, but because we are.

You cant expect god to recreate and do damage control everytime we damage! He gave us this earth in perfect condition and he did not create two sick humans. It all went wrong somewhere down the line! God created and then he was FINISHED, and he said it was all GOOD.

Now you say, its not good it suck. Well god is not going to change his mind, he said it was good, now its not good, and thats our problem really.

For him to fix this mess there is only one option, get rid of us.

(unless he has mercy)

I mean come on....if the only way to fix this world which was good from the start is to get rid of the evil doers, then nobody will think that is a good idea, in fact that would be a monster god. God cant ever do anything right it seems. Can he take away suffering. Yes, but if it means taking away you, thats not acceptable. I mean the creation is just trying to be god and thats their first problem.

heneni

 

[Heneni]

PS: Richard PM me if you need advice on how to do that quote 'thang' Im free (but im not easy)

I was at one point able to make this quote thang work, but it seems to have abandoned me, much like this God "Thang"

Give me time, i will pm you some instructions to try out.... i typed it up before just need to find it.

 

[richardlowellt]

God created the earth which is a safe place for us to live, and thats why we are here and not on mars. Can you give him creadit for that. Or is this planet not good enough. I mean come on. Without this planet you would pop like a corn in space. This earth was created to suit what it is you need to survive. But survival seems to be the problem, not because god is breaking glass and putting it in our food, but because we are.


Unfortunately the earth is not a SAFE place to live. It could have been if this god of yours knew what he/she/it was doing. We have a very narrow band of temperatures in which we can survive, most of the planet is either to hot or to cold for us to survive without artificial protection. It is fraught with dangers as any cooling planet would be. the extremes of temperatures create dangerous situations, hurricanes, tornados, cyclones, wild fires, the cooling of the planet created even more dangerous situations in earthquakes, volcanos, tsunamis. I would give this God of your a failing grade if his intention was to create a SAFE place for us to live. As the late great George Carlin once said, "In any decently run universe this guy would have been thrown out on his all powerful *** a long time ago"

 

[Heneni]

Unfortunately the earth is not a SAFE place to live. It could have been if this god of yours knew what he/she/it was doing. We have a very narrow band of temperatures in which we can survive, most of the planet is either to hot or to cold for us to survive without artificial protection. It is fraught with dangers as any cooling planet would be. the extremes of temperatures create dangerous situations, hurricanes, tornados, cyclones, wild fires, the cooling of the planet created even more dangerous situations in earthquakes, volcanos, tsunamis. I would give this God of your a failing grade if his intention was to create a SAFE place for us to live. As the late great George Carlin once said, "In any decently run universe this guy would have been thrown out on his all powerful *** a long time ago"

All these natural phenomena is not some god conspiring to kill you HEHEHE.... its part of the earths processes.

Some would argue....if god knew what he was doing, he would not have created a bunch of wining, fault finding, rebellious, obstinate, and stiff-necked people. But he did. I dont know how he copes.

Frankly if i was god, i would probably be less patient with the winers.

And again...we can only sit here and speculate about what a loving god is suppose to have done, but you cant define love, you dont get the right to do that. He does.

If we think he is evil and not loving to allow suffering, then will we think he is loving if he gets rid of the people that cause it? No. And so we back to square one.

God never created us to tell him what to do. If he needed an adviser he would not have been god. However we are pretty much in need of help on this planet, and the small time 'gods' on this planet just cant seem to get it together. All the while pointing the finger up to heaven and blaming god for their inability to do a better job. If god did actually come and interfere some folk would ask him to but out. There is more money to be made in making cars than in getting rid of them. God will never be able to satisfy anybody who wants to be god themselves.

If the creation trades the glory of god for the creature they go into a kind of odd mode. When they get obsessed with themselves and set themselves up as their god, they are constantly looking for the bling bling, the fame, the fortune, the name, the glory, the power, the authority, that would make them look on the outside what they think they are on the inside. God. And all these things cause suffering. The ones with power rule. What the one with the biggest gun says is ok, is. And this causes suffering. So really god needs to get rid of any creature that is trying to be god.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

God created the earth which is a safe place for us to live, and thats why we are here and not on mars. Can you give him creadit for that. Or is this planet not good enough. I mean come on. Without this planet you would pop like a corn in space. This earth was created to suit what it is you need to survive. But survival seems to be the problem, not because god is breaking glass and putting it in our food, but because we are.


Unfortunately the earth is not a SAFE place to live. It could have been if this god of yours knew what he/she/it was doing. We have a very narrow band of temperatures in which we can survive, most of the planet is either to hot or to cold for us to survive without artificial protection. It is fraught with dangers as any cooling planet would be. the extremes of temperatures create dangerous situations, hurricanes, tornados, cyclones, wild fires, the cooling of the planet created even more dangerous situations in earthquakes, volcanos, tsunamis. I would give this God of your a failing grade if his intention was to create a SAFE place for us to live. As the late great George Carlin once said, "In any decently run universe this guy would have been thrown out on his all powerful *** a long time ago"

Richard. For the time being...just press the quote button. Dont alter anything in the post and at the bottem of the post, where you see
[ / quote ] start typing after that.

At the moment it looks like what you are saying is what i am saying...