Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[PruePhillip]

Just because you don't understand the profound teachings of the Son of God, doesn't mean they are "stupid".

“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." How is that not a meaningless platitude? The meek don't get anything. They just get shat on.

You obviously aren't aware that the followers of different versions of Christianity were regularly persecuted and killed for their beliefs - the very beliefs you claim people would not die for. In fact, part of the reason orthodoxy triumphed was because it tortured and killed its rivals.
Yet again you are merely displaying confirmation bias.

Blessed are the meek. Jesus is here talking about spiritual and heavenly matters. He makes that clear that things on the earth have
little relevance. This is where that word 'transcendance' comes in, 'transcending' earth and time. The torturing and killing came into
its own about the 4th Century with the triumph of the Roman Catholic Church. Jesus warned his followers that some would be killed
by those who 'think' they are doing God service.
Interestingly - Daniel during Persian captivity spoke of the Messiah as being 'cut off' by a nation he didn't recognize in his day. That
nation was Rome. This nation would eventually fall but never fall. Rome was a great pagan empire. Then we had the global reign of
the Roman Catholic Church. Then there was the Holy Roman Empire. Then Russia, Italy and Germany called themselves the new
Rome. Even John Lennon called America the 'new Rome.' Quite fascinating. The Jews could not understand how their Messianic
king would be destroyed, along with their temple, Jerusalem and the whole Jewish nation.

 

[PruePhillip]

You seem to be missing the point. The "consensus" could have been something quite different if the rivalry and conflict between the different sects had played out differently.

I suggest you read Matthew and Mark's Gospel, then compare it to this 'infancy narrative' of the second or third century.

 

[KWED]

I don't live in that universe, in case you have forgotten. I live in the universe of free will and Transcendence. My actions actually matter and effect the world as opposed to being only the farts of the universe.

The universe is what the universe is. It doesn't change just because you want it to. Your inability or unwillingness to understand evidence and rational argument does not make them go away.

 

[KWED]

Lol, you did it again! You assumed you have the freedom to discover truth in a world where that's impossible.

Wrong again.
They presented an "if..then.." argument. It does not assume any truth.

But as we have explained, it is not impossible to determine facts in a godless universe. That is just an assumption you make, with no supporting argument or evidence.

 

[KWED]

No it doesn't. God does.

Your problem is that not only is there no evidence for your claim, we actually know the natural processes by which much of what god is claimed to have "created" was formed.
As you demonstrated earlier, you have been reduced to pointing at the knowledge and achievements of men and claiming "but god made you do that", which no one in their right mind would present as a reasonable argument.

 

[KWED]

And why would you think that the universe doesn't do the same through random selection? And you don't understand that God allows libertarian free will, his knowledge doesn't need to determine everything.

There is a difference between certain outcomes being more likely than others because of the various influencing factors, and one outcome being inevitable because it is what god has predestined.

Think of it like this.
People die as a result of natural processes - but that is not the same as someone deliberately killing you.

 

[KWED]

I don't even recognize that religion because you just invented it. That's not Christianity.

Are you sure you know what Chritianity involves, because all those things are elements of Christianity in some form?

 

[KWED]

The universe... random causation. Look up atheist determinism.

Firstly, I am not a determinist.
Second, so you admit that the world as we see it can be explained by natural processes alone.

 

[KWED]

And you keep trying to pretend it's about sex. If you can't address actual christian beliefs no one has to take you seriously. You are just inventing nonsense.

Are you seriously claiming that a person does not need the free, informed, adult consent of a girl before impregnating her (even if it is by magic sex)?

 

[KWED]

Why? Because it makes life completely meaningless.

Question begging.
Why do you assume that life has "meaning" (other than the meaning we ascribe ourselves through our ability to think abstract thoughts)?

Does life have meaning for fish or ants or sparrows?

 

[PruePhillip]

The universe is what the universe is. It doesn't change just because you want it to. Your inability or unwillingness to understand evidence and rational argument does not make them go away.

You, the observer, are a part of the universe. You cannot prove that this universe 'doesn't change' when you observe it
(re quantum double slit experiment)
Nor can anyone demonstrate how a universe could create itself from nothing, and for no reason whatsoever.
Science will take you only so far.

 

[KWED]

Think of it this way. When you place an order online to a company you have never heard of before or seen and are not sure about their competency, you hesitate. After 12 orders of efficient deliveries you give them a 5 star and you know where its coming from.

So you have had at least 12 prayers answered, yet god ignores the prayers for children dying in agony.
Come on, tell us. What were those prayers that you had answered?
Why are you so special that god keeps doing your bidding while leaving children to die in agony?

 

[PruePhillip]

Question begging.
Why do you assume that life has "meaning" (other than the meaning we ascribe ourselves through our ability to think abstract thoughts)?

Does life have meaning for fish or ants or sparrows?

From a human perspective ants and sparrows are necessary to maintain a human centric environment.
Similar to this question - why is the universe so old and moving away from us? Because a new universe
won't develop metals and a static universe will collapse in on itself. And that could be why some planet
hit the earth at the correct angle to create our seasonal shift plus the stabilizing moon, and why a meteor
hit Yutacan, of all places, at the right spot to remove all dinosaurs other than birds that would have stopped
humans from evolving. Sound crazy? If so then explain the weird odds that make it possible for us to be
here - starting with the basic variables of charge, gravity etc..

 

[KWED]

Relevance?

It was a response to your question of why some people believe and others don't.
Please try to keep up.

1) how do you know?

Because of all the children of believers who keep dying. Because of bad stuff happening to religious people. Because of the evidence!

2) They believe they are answered because they prayed and received...

Only those who think this happened. There is even someone on this thread who lost their faith because their prayers were never answered.

We do not "choose" what we believe?
I cannot respond to that statement.

Like so many others. But you should at least have a go.
You claim that you can choose to believe there is no god. Go on then. Do it for an hour and then tell me how it feels to actually be be an atheist.

You probably won't see me answer much of your posts. There really isn't anything to answer.

The important ones that you keep avoiding are...
1. Specifically, what prayers have you have answered?
This thread is about the efficacy or prayer. You repeatedly claim that not only does prayer work, but you have had multiple prayers answered.
And yet, you repeatedly refuse to say what these prayers were. This is your chance to spread the good word by providing evidence of god's miraculous works. Why so hesitant?

2. And why does god repeatedly favour your trivial prayers of self-interest while ignoring the prayers for children dying in agony.
The arrogance of constantly believing that you are that special must be exhausting.

 

[KWED]

But the test was about Christians. Even Satanists understand that their prayers can get answers (just not from God) Not insinuating that Muslims are praying to Satan.

So you believe that Satan answers prayers?
What about the gods of Hinduism? Do they answer prayers as well, because there are Hindus who are just as convinced as you that they do.

 

[KWED]

The same ones that are all predetermined in your world view? I'm failing to see anything meaningful about being a robot powered by chance.

If a sentient robot is not aware that it is a robot, then as far as it is concerned, it is not a robot.

 

[KWED]

Did God inspire someone to write a story about a naughty baby Jesus, casting spells on on his friends?
There's all manner of ways people divine the true nature of the universe - one of which is called the Scientific Method,
still being refined last century by Karl Popper. The fact that most methods are bogus doesn't mean they are all bogus.
Ditto with religion.

So you think that some gospels can be dismissed as fabrications because they contain unlikely events.

 

[KWED]

The Christian gospel first appeared in the Old Testament.
There would be a Messiah - both as king and as redeemer (paying the price for sin)
The two Messias would be seen as one when the Messianic king appears - and the Jews will mourn to see it's the same lowly figure they pierced.
The redeemer would be crucified (King David writing about a method of death invented by later Persians)
When this Messiah comes the Hebrew nation would come to an end (Jacob early iron age) and he would be believed upon of the Gentiles
This redeemer would suffer, be slain and in his resurrection see that his work was good (Persian period prophecy)
The Messiah would heal the sick, raise the dead, recover the sight of the blind

If someone didn't inspire writers for 2,000 years to build this image then it was extraordinary amount of co-incidence.

So there was a long history of people in the region expecting such a person. So people would be eager to identify him. Hardly surprising then that some people claimed to have found him (confirmation bias)
Ironically, the long and deep-rooted expectation just weakens your case rather than supports it.

 

[KWED]

Take the Jewish account of their settlement in Canaan ca 1700 BC. We have the accounts of the Patriarchs, Sodom,
Egyptian slavery, exodus, rule of the priests, first Monarchy, separation of Judah and Israel, Assyrian conquest, loss
of the ten tribes, Babylonian captivity, Roman occupation, the coming of Jesus, the spread of Christianity throughout the
ancient word.
With the exception of the Egyptian slavery we now have evidence for all of the above.
Now compare that account to the oral traditions of Nth American indians, or aborigines, or even the Greeks and Romans.
I put it to you this Jewish account is most likely the most historical of any oral or written tradition of ancient people. Prove
me wrong and I will respect your point - I simply have never bothered to look it up.

Firstly, is is a huge stretch to claim that there is "evidence" for all the Biblical descriptions. For example, you claim the description of the destruction of Sodom by god is accurate, but you also claim that it was actually destroyed by a meteor explosion. So, either the Bible is wrong or your archaeological evidence is wrong.

Then you say "we have evidence, prove me wrong", but you did not present your "evidence", you merely asserted its existence.
So, present your evidence and I will examine it (no need to bother with the Sodom meteor one)

 

[KWED]

Blessed are the meek. Jesus is here talking about spiritual and heavenly matters. He makes that clear that things on the earth have
little relevance. This is where that word 'transcendance' comes in, 'transcending' earth and time.

Ah, so we aren't supposed to take the words at face value (although you did just that with the verse you quoted). We need to interpret them in the context of the agenda we are pushing.
So no real difference between the two passages, other than your desire to accept one and reject the other.

The torturing and killing came into its own about the 4th Century with the triumph of the Roman Catholic Church. Jesus warned his followers that some would be killed
by those who 'think' they are doing God service.

Indeed. You assume your version of Christianity is the correct one because it had the most political and military support. But are you sure that "might is right"?