Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Wildswanderer]

I would say that if properly analyzed, it is quite possible for 'me' to 'make a choice' in a deterministic system. And yes, the result would be determined by the antecedent state of the universe, but so would my desires and goals.

Which means you only had the illusion of choice.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And if this is the case, then that is how it is and has always been, however surprising or counterintuitive that might seem to you. I am at peace with that possibility - that everything I think and do is determined. I don't know that to be the case, but if it is, OK. It's always produced a good enough experience to be glad of it and want more. Why would that change if I discovered that I was not the author of my will, but a passive observer of ideas generated in neural circuits and reported it to the consciousness who thought the ideas arose in consciousness uncaused or caused by the observer in the theater of conscious content.

Why? Because it makes life completely meaningless.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Correct. And neither can you.

I can see it clearly. Determinists do it all the time. It's easy to spot.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't even recognize that religion because you just invented it. That's not Christianity.

Seems pretty close.

 

[Wildswanderer]

There is nothing absurd about a purely naturalistic universe to a mature mind,

Lol, this assumes only atheists have mature minds. Perhaps that's why they tend to act arrogant because they think they are the only enlightened ones.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You live in the same universe as everybody else.

Correct and it's a created universe gifted to us by an omnipotent all powerful God. The ones who can't see that are willingly blind.

 

[Polymath257]

Why? Because it makes life completely meaningless.

Why would that make everything meaningless? It seems to me that it would be equally meaningful either way.

Maybe the problem is that you are looking for meaning in the wrong places. You seem to be looking for cosmic meaning that transcends the material aspects of our existence.

But suppose you found and verified a non-material realm of existence. Why is that any more meaningful than the material existence?

Or suppose that you were able to prove that there is a supernatural creator of the universe. Why would that give meaning to your life above and beyond what it would have anyway?

Why would worshiping a creator deity give meaning? If anything, that seems like a supremely meaningless goal.

 

[Polymath257]

Lol, this assumes only atheists have mature minds. Perhaps that's why they tend to act arrogant because they think they are the only enlightened ones.

And there are some theists that realize that a purely naturalistic universe is not absurd. Those that do are more mature than those that do not.

 

[Polymath257]

Correct and it's a created universe gifted to us by an omnipotent all powerful God. The ones who can't see that are willingly blind.

You mean those that do not are skeptical of wild claims made by people who think they see spirits and ghosts.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What's transcendent about your worldview? It's the easy one. It's the one accessible to children. Theism is easy.

It can be anything from easy to terribly hard depending on where you are in the journey.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Why would worshiping a creator deity give meaning?

The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher. “Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.”
3 What do people gain from all their labors at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome, more than one can say. The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them.
Wisdom Is Meaningless
12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 I applied my mind to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under the heavens. What a heavy burden God has laid on mankind!
14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.


This is life as we see it without a transcendent understanding. Ultimately pointless existence.

 

[Polymath257]

The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher. “Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.”
3 What do people gain from all their labors at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome, more than one can say. The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them.
Wisdom Is Meaningless
12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 I applied my mind to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under the heavens. What a heavy burden God has laid on mankind!
14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.


This is life as we see it without a transcendent understanding. Ultimately pointless existence.

And I disagree that it is ultimately a meaningless existence. It is meaningful because *we* give it meaning based on our goals and desires. being a social species, this often relates to helping others. Being an intelligent species, it can also relate to learning about the universe and how it works.

I don't need to be remembered for my life to be meaningful. I don't need acclaim or honors. And it does not bother me that I exist only temporarily. Meaning isn't dependent on eternity. If anything, eternal things would be less meaningful. So the wailings of the quote you gave have no bearing on my way of seeing things. They, again, seem to want to find meaning in the wrong places (as I see it).

 

[Kenny]

How do you know a deity answered your prayer?

Think of it this way. When you place an order online to a company you have never heard of before or seen and are not sure about their competency, you hesitate. After 12 orders of efficient deliveries you give them a 5 star and you know where its coming from.

Well God is fiction. There is no actual evidence of any God?

You just said God may answer ALL prayers?

I have never said that.

Well I'm not the one saying "invalid" ..."these people make it invalid", that would be you. So, if you want to put it that way, the someone who thinks this God doesn't love the world, that would be you?
Do you think King David may have used improper form? He may have, and yet....his prayer was NOT INVALID????

You are continuing to dodge the question?

I do not think any Gods love any worlds because Gods are fictional characters in religions.

Have no idea where you are coming from

 

[Kenny]

There are so many irrelevant questions, I stoped at three.

People usually believe in gods because they have been brought up to believe in them. As Aristotle said "Give me the boy until he is seven, and I will show you the man".

Relevance?

Most people's prayers are not answered so how could they believe that they are answered?

1) how do you know?
2) They believe they are answered because they prayed and received...

First statement and second are contradictory

Not so. "Belief" is an unconscious response to a variety of elements. We do not "choose" what we believe. I could not believe in the god of the Bible. I could pretend I did, but I would know that it was a pretence.

We do not "choose" what we believe?

I cannot respond to that statement.

You probably won't see me answer much of your posts. There really isn't anything to answer.

 

[Kenny]

I believe it is possible but I also have seen incredible claims about the Qu'ran being miraculous.

Yes, they have.

But the test was about Christians. Even Satanists understand that their prayers can get answers (just not from God) Not insinuating that Muslims are praying to Satan.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And I disagree that it is ultimately a meaningless existence. It is meaningful because *we* give it meaning based on our goals and desires

The same ones that are all predetermined in your world view? I'm failing to see anything meaningful about being a robot powered by chance.

 

[PruePhillip]

The gospels are anonymous, the names Mathew Mark Luke and John are fictional, they didn't appear until the 2nd century, and none of the earliest copies of the gospels were authored. There are no eye witnesses to anything Jesus purportedly said or did, it's hearsay.

So you have seven recent letters. You name them something like
4/6/2022 #1
4/6/2022 #2
25/5/2022
0216/2022
07/02/2022 #1
07/02/2022 #2
05/01/2022

Or maybe... you might name them:

Aunt Maude's second letter
Uncle Keith's letter
Mary's letter
School principle's letter
Jack Higgin's letter
Brother Joe's letter
Aunt Mude's first letter

Something like that. WHICH WOULD YOU EXPECT?

You would identify the letters by their authors.
Not all. Like the Psalms there are some authors you forget, ie Hebrews.
And besides, the Apostolic Christians weren't that big into self aggrandizing, so there's no name, like possibly Peter's
Gospel, written by his secretary Mark, and known to us as the Gospel according to Mark. Someone would say, "I have
taken a copy of part of that Gospel that Mark wrote."
By the end of the First Century these documents, or scraps of them in any case, were all over the Roman Empire.

Earliest dateable document was about 55 AD. And even here we get hints that Paul had read the Gospels that we know
today. Luke never met Jesus and he died ca 65 AD with Paul. Luke copies extensively EXISTING Gospels of Mark and
Matthew.

 

[PruePhillip]

Are you confessing that you don't trust science or democracy?


Yet in religion, how much is factual? Very little if any of it.

But I notice you offer no answer to my question, why did God inspire so many to write false narratives?

Did God inspire someone to write a story about a naughty baby Jesus, casting spells on on his friends?
There's all manner of ways people divine the true nature of the universe - one of which is called the Scientific Method,
still being refined last century by Karl Popper. The fact that most methods are bogus doesn't mean they are all bogus.
Ditto with religion.

 

[Polymath257]

The same ones that are all predetermined in your world view? I'm failing to see anything meaningful about being a robot powered by chance.

Yes, the goals and desires that *I* have, from whatever source. And yes, I get to 'choose' my goals and desires based on my previous thoughts and feelings. I don't see how it would be meaningful to have my goals and desires determined by something other than my past, my thoughts, and my feelings.

Being 'powered' by the laws of physics is NOT the same as being powered by chance,.

 

[Polymath257]

Did God inspire someone to write a story about a naughty baby Jesus, casting spells on on his friends?

No, but a non-existent God would also not inspire someone to write the accepted gospels either.

There's all manner of ways people divine the true nature of the universe - one of which is called the Scientific Method,
still being refined last century by Karl Popper. The fact that most methods are bogus doesn't mean they are all bogus.
Ditto with religion.

And how does one go about eliminating false beliefs when it comes to religion? Suppose, for example, one person likes the Bible and another likes the Koran. How can we tell who is wrong?