Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Sheldon]

Quite a lot of evolution and quantum physics involve speculation. And it's not a scientific veiwpoint if it's speculation.

Species evolution is an accepted scientific theory, and therefore a scientific fact. Creationist denials of it are simply a false dichotomy fallacy, in the mistaken belief this lends credence to unevidenced archaic and superstitious creation myths, that involve appeals to mystery and magic. Pure speculation is used to start the scientific process, but is not sufficient for any idea to become a scientific fact, or an accepted scientific theory or law.

 

[Sheldon]

If the infinite can be proven by science that would support belief in God.

No it wouldn't. not any deity, and certainly not any specific deity. Anymore than Harry Potter books contain something true would support wizardry.

 

[Sheldon]

It Aint Necessarily So said: ↑
but atheists have revised that to comport better with their reality, namely, that most atheists, including me, are agnostic about gods.

Then you aren't an atheist.

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. I am an atheist, but remain agnostic about claims that are unfalsifiable, I also withhold belief from them, as they are meaningless.

Atheism
noun

1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Agnosticism
noun

1. a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.

If something is unfalsifiable, then is is fact that nothing is known or can be known about its existence or nature. Can you offer an example other than deities humans have imagined, that is both extant and unfalsifiable?

 

[Wildswanderer]

No it isn't. It is an unconscious reaction to a variety of elements.

Nonsense. We all choose what to believe. Certainly we may weigh the evidence but we still choose. Rebellion against God is usually because someone doesn't want to follow what he says so they decide they no longer believe.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That doesn't work for me.

Lol, so you redefine all definitions based on what works for you?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Why? Because the idea was correct, and as such, cannot be successfully rebutted

Lol, you have zero evidence that it's correct. It's totally speculative. So what you have is a belief.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So if someone tells you God changed them you just assume they are lying? People who have suddenly been freed from lifelong addiction?

It's like you're doing your best not to take in anything we're saying here.

That's more than willpower.

Is it? You'd have to demonstrate that.

My grandfather quit smoking on the day I was born. Cold turkey. Just like that, after years of trying and failing. No Gods required. Just his own willpower.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Choice? Once back into critical thinking mode,

Otherwise known as convincing yourself of what you want to pursue.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It's like you're doing your best not to take in anything we're saying here.


Is it? You'd have to demonstrate that.

My grandfather quit smoking on the day I was born. Cold turkey. Just like that, after years of trying and failing. No Gods required. Just his own willpower.

You ever noticed that organizations like AA include a higher power in their program? Why? Because overall they get more successful results.

 

[F1fan]

Influence isn't even on the table here.

It is the table. Your Christian beliefs are due to the influence of your life experiences. The assumptions that come with your religious beliefs are due to influence. Your beliefs are not reasoned conclusions based on facts. Yet you write posts that presume they are. You dismiss reasoned rebuttals to your posts much the same way you reject evolution. Your bias is due to influence. Bad influence to my mind.

It's irrelevant to the discussion. No free will equals no decisions, only the illusion of making decisions.

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You ever noticed that organizations like AA include a higher power in their program? Why? Because overall they get more successful results.

No, they include something higher than you, but can could be humanity, culture or any other common human social aspect.
It is the psychology of feeling connected and not just you, but that doesn't require God.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Influence isn't even on the table here. It's irrelevant to the discussion. No free will equals no decisions, only the illusion of making decisions.

This post is an illusion written without free will.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This post is an illusion written without free will.

No it just means your words would not matter, because they are just universe farts.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I have no idea what you mean.

If there's no free will, there's no real decisions. What is hard to understand about that?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No it just means your words would not matter, because they are just universe farts.

But then they matter as a part of the universe. No, that is wrong. I am an illusion and not in the universe, that is what matters. Where you are all that matters.

Do you really what to play, that you decide what matters? Okay, but that doesn't matter to me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If there's no free will, there's no real decisions. What is hard to understand about that?

It doesn't matters, since there is still such thing as changing cognition and feelings/emotions.

BTW your deduction is invalid.

 

[Sheldon]

Rebellion against God is usually because someone doesn't want to follow what he says so they decide they no longer believe.

Atheism is not "rebellion against god", it is the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities. I did not choose to be an atheist, I was born that way, and despite religion's attempts to indoctrinate me, I remained an atheist, it involved choices of course, but the lack of belief is not itself a choice.

 

[Polymath257]

"The basis of morality is Thinking and Caring. Care about those around you and the effect you have on others. And Think about what you do and how it impacts the world around you. Compassion and a sense of Fairness are other good moral values."

All of what you said here is completely beyond your control if you have no free will, but you still act as if you can decide right and wrong.

The actions are still right or wrong whether or not you have free will. the 'decision' still happens in your brain, which means you and your 'programming' are what needs to change. That is responsibility.

 

[Polymath257]

You are not getting it. If you are programmed by prior events, your attempt to reprogram is just part of the original program.. you are still assuming free will.

No, it is part of a *different* program: those of the ones sentencing you to be punished, etc.

No, I am NOT assuming free will. I am assuming a social species, so there is a value of working together. The value is part of the workings of their brains, so is determined in that sense, but decisions 'the nexus of causality' happens within the brain, so that is the brain that needs to be reprogrammed.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Straw man. No, I think there would be no reason for me to tell someone else that killing, etc was wrong. And it seems you agree, with your admission that there's no real standard of right and wrong.

You mean to say that you couldn't figure out on your own that killing other people is a wrong/bad action?

Yikes. You should stick with your God belief then.