Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Wildswanderer]

There is no evidence that there is.
There is no rational argument that there should be.
Everything we know suggests that there isn't.

So the question really is - why do you think there is?
You are making the positive claim, so the burden of proof is on you. And thus far you haven't been able to produce anything that comes close to evidence or rational argument.

Therefore the reasonable, default position is that there is no reason to accept your claim. And it will remain as such until you produce something better.

I think there's Transcendence because I've experienced it, multiple times in my life.
According to atheist thought, I should ignore my experiences and doubt what my heart knows.
You see why we don't take your arguments seriously?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Or they realized they didn't have good reasons for believing.
Or that they were believing on faith, which is not a pathway to truth.

I don't agree that belief is a choice. I can't believe things that I'm not convinced of. Can you?

Choice isn't always a snap decision. Life changing choices are often made gradually, a series of small choices leading to big ones... that's often how people gain or lose faith in God. Faith is actually the only pathway to Truth, which is why a non believer can never get there without jumping off his perch of skepticism.

 

[Polymath257]

No, it was made long before you were born, if we live in a deterministic Universe. You are just a puppet doing what you have to do.

And if we don't live in a deterministic universe? (btw, we don't).

 

[Wildswanderer]

And if we don't live in a deterministic universe? (btw, we don't).

Then we have free will, obviously.
But I don't see how that is possible in a godless universe.

 

[Polymath257]

Then we have free will, obviously.
But I don't see how that is possible in a godless universe.

Nondeterministic does not guarantee free will.

Quantum mechanics is nondeterministic and requires no deity.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You mean to say that you couldn't figure out on your own that killing other people is a wrong/bad action?

Yikes. You should stick with your God belief then.

I can't speak for other former Christians, but it was a hard lesson for me to learn as an ex-Christian that I don't need to follow God and be a Christian to make the right choices in my life or to be a kind and compassionate person. I had to deprogram myself from the Christian indoctrination I had been subjected to during my life before I could finally accept the fact that I don't need God in my life to be a good person. I used to believe I needed God in my life to make me a good person, but I no longer believe that. It took me a long time to free myself from the Christian indoctrination I had been subjected to in my life, and it was difficult for me to break free of it.

It was such a relief for me after I finally let go of the fearmongering of Christianity: the fear of God, the shame of disobeying God, the constant worry that I'd lose my salvation if I sinned against God and then died, and the persistent fear of going to hell even though I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior (Matt. 7:21-23). Personally, I think that these fundamental fearmongering beliefs of Christianity are very detrimental to people. It certainly was to me. The only regret I have regarding my decision to renounce my faith in God is that I should have done it years ago rather than continue to hold on to the false hope that God is a loving and merciful heavenly father who loves me and cares about me. I could have saved myself years of anxiety and depression if I had been able to realize that my belief and hope in God was the root cause of my anxiety and depression in the first place. But since I've forsaken my Christian faith and let go of my false hope in God, my life is so much better now and so is my mental health. My personal exodus of breaking free from my devout faith and belief in God is the reason why I like this Penn Jillette quote so much. It's a reminder that I don't need God in my life.

 

[Polymath257]

No, it was made long before you were born, if we live in a deterministic Universe. You are just a puppet doing what you have to do.

No. The decision and it's result would be determined. I still made a decision.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Nondeterministic does not guarantee free will.

Quantum mechanics is nondeterministic and requires no deity.

Which might indicate that we actually live in a universe where everyone has libertarian free will... but that seems to contradict traditional thinking about history being an unbroken line of causation. I see Quantum physics as evidence for a creator.

 

[ppp]

This is what Gould (?) called the "non-overlapping Magisteria" of science and religion. Science is about the world and religion is about meaning and value.
Religion for me takes on the philosophical dimension (why something rather than nothing stuff) the veracity of the bible and spiritual feelings/experiences.

Yes. That was Gould. though you are misquoting him slightly. He said facts vs values. Not world vs values. And he was wrong. I mean, aren't you literally claiming that there is a spiritual realm that exists? And a god that exists? In reality?

If you dont see god as merely an imaginary friend then you are not just making claims of "values". You are making claims about facts.

Right?

Thought you understood the black swan thing. Once people said 'All swans are white' as though it was a certainty, if not a science statement.

What do you think I am saying?

I am not saying that it is impossible that something we might consider to be gods cannot exist. I am saying two things:

1. That there is no reason to be convinced that you know or are capable of knowing what you are talking about with respect to your girlfriend d beliefs.
2. That the definitions of the Christian god are incoherent.

 

[Polymath257]

Hogwash. You have just convinced yourself you aren't making decisions that's you actually are making.

Maybe that's how you believe, but that isn't how I do so.

 

[Polymath257]

Which might indicate that we actually live in a universe where everyone has libertarian free will... but that seems to contradict traditional thinking about history being an unbroken line of causation. I see Quantum physics as evidence for a creator.

And those that believe a deity knows everything about the future also have problems with determinism.

Quantum mechanics doesn't work well with libertarian free will even though it is nondeterministic. Which is worse? Having all your actions determined from the beginning of the universe or having all of your actions being produced by random events that have nothing to do with you? QM suggests the latter.

Who made a claim in this thread about history being an unbroken line of causation?

 

[Polymath257]

Choice isn't always a snap decision. Life changing choices are often made gradually, a series of small choices leading to big ones...

Which suggests that choice is determined by what happened in the past as acted upon you by your environment.

that's often how people gain or lose faith in God. Faith is actually the only pathway to Truth, which is why a non believer can never get there without jumping off his perch of skepticism.

From what I can see, faith is no better than random guessing and is thereby not a path to anything but self-delusion.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes. That was Gould. though you are misquoting him slightly. He said facts vs values. Not world vs values. And he was wrong. I mean, aren't you literally claiming that there is a spiritual realm that exists? And a god that exists? In reality?

If you dont see god as merely an imaginary friend then you are not just making claims of "values". You are making claims about facts.

Right?


What do you think I am saying?

I am not saying that it is impossible that something we might consider to be gods cannot exist. I am saying two things:

1. That there is no reason to be convinced that you know or are capable of knowing what you are talking about with respect to your girlfriend d beliefs.
2. That the definitions of the Christian god are incoherent.

Quote - 'respect to your girlfriend d beliefs.' ??????
Quote - 'That the definitions of the Christian god are incoherent.' ?????

In Christian doctine (you know, that Apostolic, Gospel, bible stuff as opposed to Catholic or Protestant ideas) there is the belief that you begin your Christian journey in FAITH, (ie I believe in God but have no evidence that would convince another, and have no experience) and this faith must become EXPERIENCE.
And if you have spent your life living by faith alone that you simple 'don't get it.' This is about PRIVATE PROOF and not CORPORATE PROOF. Different magisterium.

 

[PruePhillip]

"Genesis doesn't mention the SNOWBALL EARTH either, or the LATE GREAT BOMBARDMENT."
I'm having difficulty deciding what your point is. .

From my notes, compiled over 20 years.

Reconciling Genesis

To reconcile Genesis’ account of creation with science three assumptions need making:

Assume:

1. The observer is standing upon the Earth (in reality most readers of Genesis had no concept of space, just as we have little idea of a “multi-verse” of whatever lies beyond this)
2. That the “days” are symbols of completeness or periods of creation.
3. One event is repeated and one is out of sequence.

KJ version:

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is not a preamble to the six days. First the "heaven" and then the Earth. No time or method of creation is stated.


[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


We now move to the earth - an oceanic cloud world like most earth size planets are thought to be (Bayesian evidence for the prevalence of waterworlds. Royal Astron Soc. June 2017)
The existence of an early ocean was not accepted until 2005 when Australian scientists were able to study the chemical composition of zirconian crystals dating from the pre-continent age.


[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Assuming a Titan analog, the early Earth would have been dark until the cloud deck cleared, bringing light. This would have exposed the day and night cycle caused by the Earth’s rotation. And so, on the early earth the sun appeared in the sky - not because it had just formed but because it just appeared.

[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


I do not understand what the “firmament” here means. I checked it in parallel translations. This might mean the air itself as it separates the waters below from the waters above.


[9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
[10] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


“Dry land” meant the granite blocks which rose above the submerged basalt crust. The continents required the existence of oceanic water to initiate the motion of plate tectonics (continental drift) and this in turn created the granite necessary for the lighter continents.


2017 study of zircon evidence for lack of continents.

Formation of Hadean granites by melting of igneous crust | Nature Geoscience

Exposed ocean crust - oxygen isotopes evidence for oceanic world. 2020.

Geologists determine early Earth was a 'water world' by studying exposed ocean crust


[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[13] And the evening and the morning were the third day.


The Earth "creates" life. Of itself. It is was believed that life appeared in the oceans first. But new lines of evidence converged in 2017 to suggest that it was the land and not the deep ocean trenches which set in motion the creation of life (University of California - Santa Cruz. 2017)


14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
[18] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
[19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


This repeats day 1.


[20] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
[21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
[23] And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.


It is the waters which create life. Water is life’s “solvent.” God’s agency is to command, NOT TO DIRECTLY ACT UPON. Until Darwin’s Origin of Species it was not understood how a bird could come from the ocean.

1. Birds come from therapod dinosaurs
2. Dinosaurs evolved from reptiles
3. Reptiles evolved from amphibians
4. Amphibians evolved from fishes

This is one of the earliest references to life coming from the sea.


[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
[25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them….
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


God made man in the image of something which already existed. The “second” Genesis account suggests that Adam and Eve were not the only people on the Earth, for Cain went out and married into people not know to that family.


Genesis is roundly criticized in our secular society. It is remarkable that its account accords so closely to what is agreed upon in science.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Which is worse? Having all your actions determined from the beginning of the universe or having all of your actions being produced by random events that have nothing to do with you? QM suggests the latter.

Not according to what I've seen.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Which suggests that choice is determined by what happened in the past as acted upon you by your environment.

I don't see it that way. You think it's all determined by your environment, now? You need to make up your mind.

 

[ppp]

Quote - 'respect to your girlfriend d beliefs.' ??????

Lol. Whoops.

That should have been, There is no reason to believe that you know or are capable of knowing what you are talking about with respect to your god beliefs.

Quote - 'That the definitions of the Christian god are incoherent.' ?????

Yes. What is your god? Not what did he do, but what is he?

In Christian doctine (you know, that Apostolic, Gospel, bible stuff as opposed to Catholic or Protestant ideas) there is the belief that you begin your Christian journey in FAITH, (ie I believe in God but have no evidence that would convince another, and have no experience) and this faith must become EXPERIENCE.

Yes. I know that such is the belief than many Christians have.

And if you have spent your life living by faith alone that you simple 'don't get it.' This is about PRIVATE PROOF and not CORPORATE PROOF. Different magisterium.

It would be about private proof if Christianity were not the most meddlesome religion Y'all have spent the last 2000 years exercising cultural force, psychological force, economic force, legal force, and physical force to make others do things your way. Right now here in the US there is a huge Christian effort where all of those types of force are being employed on a daily basis. Christians are sinking a lot of time, money and effort in trying to legislate compliance with their religious beliefs. Many of those proposed laws are purely vindictive against those of whom they do not approve.

If you guys wanted PRIVATE PROOF to be respected then y'all should have kept out of everyone else's privates.

 

[F1fan]

If there's no free will, there's no real decisions. What is hard to understand about that?

Once again you exhibit a huge lack of knowledge in what you think you are talking about. Free will assumes a person is aware of every influence that has come their way in life, and that just isn't the case. Many people make decisions without any rational consideration, these are emotional and habitual impulses. In reality we humans function with a many decisions that are not considered rationally, but are habitual and impulsive, and then there is a small number of decisions we make that are deliberate and rational. For example, no one decides a God exists via facts. Believers adopt a socially popular way of thinking and it becomes a kind of operating software for these folks. Some reject this influence and question it and reason through the claims, and reject them. But the vast majority go along with the social construct, and they have no idea why. They know it feels good. They like their religious community. They like to conform to the social norm, which most do. This doesn't mean religions are true.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Once again you exhibit a huge lack of knowledge in what you think you are talking about. Free will assumes a person is aware of every influence that has come their way in life, and that just isn't the case. Many people make decisions without any rational consideration, these are emotional and habitual impulses. In reality we humans function with a many decisions that are not considered rationally, but are habitual and impulsive, and then there is a small number of decisions we make that are deliberate and rational.

So? Even if that's correct, which you have not proven, it doesn't negate free will. And how are habits formed? By choosing the same thing over again.
Even our personalities are choices to a large degree as much as we don't like to admit it.

 

[PruePhillip]

religion Y'all have spent the last 2000 years exercising cultural force, psychological force, economic force, legal force, and physical force to make others do things your way. Right now here in the US there is a huge Christian effort where all of those types of force are being employed on a daily basis. Christians are sinking a lot of time, money and effort in trying to legislate compliance with their religious beliefs. Many of those proposed laws are purely vindictive against those of whom they do not approve.

If you guys wanted PRIVATE PROOF to be respected then y'all should have kept out of everyone else's privates.

Agreed. I refer only to biblical, New Testament, Apostolic, Jesus doctrine/example stuff only. I am not amiss in saying I simply have no idea WHERE a lot of church beliefs come from. A project of mine today is to read up on Catholic ROSARY BEADS. They apparantly serve to remind you which of the various proforma prayers you are to make - only Jesus warned about praying with 'vain repititions', so go figure...