Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Sheldon]

You’re making the argument. You’re using the “data” to support your claim that prayer isn’t efficacious.

Nope, I cited research, and the context of the claims made for prayer that it examined was nothing to do with me.

I’m telling you that you’re missing the target. You’re not even on the playing field.

Cool story, you're wrong though, as you don't seem to have read the study, or understood what it was designed to do, or why. I can only suggest you do so. If you have a different belief to the one that was tested that is not really relevant.

Nope. It’s a worthless exercise in research.

Well you would say that, that's how selection bias works, and I have yet to meet anyone claiming prayers work, who didn't resort to selection bias like this. It doesn't matter though, if you think prayers work, then demonstrate some objective evidence for that, and accurately explain what you are claiming has occurred. So far all you have are anecdotal rhetoric, and vague assumptions.

 

[sojourner]

Not necessarily, I meditate, but I don't pray as I am an atheist.

Why do you meditate? Are you just wasting time and effort? Or do you meditate because it helps with something?

That would depend on what you mean by efficacious, and what your claiming is causal, correlation is not causation. Meditation can lower stress, groovy so what, lying in a dark room quietly can lower stress as well.

Your point?

What evidence what prayer? I need some clue what your specifically referring to here.

Yes! You do need a clue. Here’s the long and short of it: prayer is about building relationship — not making God out to be Santa Claus. When you meditate, you’re getting in touch with yourself, as an atheist.

A rather facile tautology.

But that’s the point: prayer helps — so long as it builds right relationship.

Again you need to take this up with someone who believes it does this. The research I linked was testing precisely those claims.

Well of course it provided negative results!!! But you don’t get to negate religion because some research pointed out that religion doesn’t do what it’s not supposed to do.

 

[sojourner]

Oh I think that's pretty ironic don't you, given you're the one telling others when they can and cannot post in a public forum. Again maybe you need to calm down a bit, and get some perspective.

Fine. Continue to act 2 and attempt to gaslight me. You’ve proven your point. You can say anything you want, regardless of whether you’ve been asked to stay out of a touchy situation. Are ya TRYING to poke the bear? Do you get some jollies out of exacerbating a tense situation? Perhaps you should try meditating more.

 

[Sheldon]

Why do you meditate? Are you just wasting time and effort? Or do you meditate because it helps with something?

Helps me relax, and no religious belief or theistic belief or belief in anything supernatural is needed for that.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes! You do need a clue.

Well your claim was vague to the point of being obtuse, so yes.

Here’s the long and short of it: prayer is about building relationship — not making God out to be Santa Claus.

Nice straw man, why do you keep projecting theistic claims for what prayers can achieve onto me? I've explained these are not my beliefs or claims, would pictures help?

When you meditate, you’re getting in touch with yourself, as an atheist.

Nope not even close, pretty funny for you to try and tell me what I am doing when I mediate though. The point however is mediation is not prayer, as you implied. Or at least it need not involve prayer.

 

[Sheldon]

Well of course it provided negative results!!! But you don’t get to negate religion because some research pointed out that religion doesn’t do what it’s not supposed to do.

Straw man...

 

[blü 2]

But in this context that’s not what it means. Weakness or depression IS the “sickness” referred to here.

As I said, you have the weight of all modern translations in that list against you. If it means depression, the KJV translation would then have been 'melancholic', the appropriate medical term back then. Instead the word, then and now, is 'sick', a completely legitimate and authentic translation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok. Just lost all respect for you. Too bad; you seemed heretofore like a nice, reasonable person.

First of all, I’m a professional at what I do — I’ve been in this game for over 20 years. Got the degrees, the ordination, and the standing in a major denomination to back that up. I really don’t appreciate the lack of mutual respect. Second, You’re irreligious. You have no authority and no business passing judgment in the spiritual arena, Skeezix. Case in point: religion absolutely is for healing and wholeness, and if you don’t know that, you really don’t have any business pontificating on it. Remember Jesus healing people? Remember Peter healing the lame man? Maybe not… and before you go pontificating on the lack of factual history, you’d do well to remember that I know full well the metaphorical and mythic nature of the texts. The stories show us that yes, the purpose of religion is about bringing people to wholeness.

I’m merely attesting to my personal experiences and my witnessing of those of others. You’re the one demanding scientific evidence. I really couldn’t care less. Yes, I’m interested in the physical and scientific where they may intersect with spirituality, and offering some conjecture, but not in any way trying to say that this is factually the way it is.

what would be a really good idea, Cochise, is to stop trying to make the validity of religion all about scientific evidence and what would be a really, really great idea is for you to issue a public apology for assuming to tell me what I do and don’t know about my profession.

By the way, what is your degree or degrees in? Just because one has a degree does not mean that it applies. And name calling is of course against the rules. I am not the one that made testable claims and then could not properly test those claims. And of course I have just as much business as you do when it comes to "pontificating" about spirituality. There is no such thing as a degree in spirituality so you have no more expertise in that area than I do.

 

[Sheldon]

Fine. Continue to act 2 and attempt to gaslight me. You’ve proven your point. You can say anything you want, regardless of whether you’ve been asked to stay out of a touchy situation. Are ya TRYING to poke the bear? Do you get some jollies out of exacerbating a tense situation? Perhaps you should try meditating more.

You're inability to stay calm here is not my doing, and you were wrong to try and tell other posters they should not contribute their opinions. Gaslight you, dear oh dear, nothing Machiavellian is happening here, you just lost your temper, I'm sure you'll get over it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I found a straw. It has nothing to do with the topic, but I found a straw!!

Well, then, go make some bricks!

 

[sojourner]

As I said, you have the weight of all modern translations in that list against you. If it means depression, the KJV translation would then have been 'melancholic', the appropriate medical term back then. Instead the word, then and now, is 'sick', a completely legitimate and authentic translation.

Except that you’re ignoring the nuances of
the context. Nowhere in the vicinity of the passage does it mention anything remotely akin to physical illness. It does, however, talk about more
Spiritual and emotional issues.

 

[sojourner]

You're inability to stay calm here is not my doing, and you were wrong to try and tell other posters they should not contribute their opinions. Gaslight you, dear oh dear, nothing Machiavellian is happening here, you just lost your temper, I'm sure you'll get over it.

Classic gaslighting. You’re being provocative. My temper is my business; the other poster crossed a line and you and I are done.

 

[sojourner]

How do you know that it wasn't change from within rather than change from god?

They’re the same thing.

 

[sojourner]

Or hat the prayers were *denied* by God and not just by random chance?

Ultimately, the question is whether *any* prayers have an effectiveness any different than random chance. And how that could be determined if they do.

What is it do you think prayers are *supposed* to do? You appear to be arguing against the “Christmas wish list” paradigm. But that’s not authentic prayer, so no one would be surprised to have it not work.

 

[sojourner]

The OP is about the efficacy of prayer. It is even in the title.
Therefore, such points about the efficacy of prayer are on-topic.
However, I understand why you are reluctant to address them.

I think the preponderance of points are not cogent.

 

[sojourner]

The study cited in the OP showed that the people who knew they were being preyed for had worse outcomes.

They were looking for the wrong outcomes.

 

[sojourner]

Because we know that eye witness testimonies are notoriously unreliable. This is true across the board. People seeing car crashes will give wildly inconsistent stories about it. This is an every day occurrence. People misidentify suspects, then get details wrong, they misremember, etc.

They aren't lying, per se. They are saying what they believe to be true. But what they say is wrong and false. So *all* eye witness testimony needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

And that is for something where they don't have an emotional stake in the outcome. Add religious or other emotional bias and eye witness testimonies become just another of a range of possibilities.

For the most part, I believe people have these experiences. I believe they feel awe and a feeling of belonging, or tingling on their heads, or whatever other physical symptoms they report.

What I do not think is true is their *interpretation* of what they experience. And I doubt this because I know from nay other situations that such reports are not reliable.

What about people giving testimony concerning interior things, rather than exterior things? If I perceive that I “feel sick,” it’s probably the case that I do, in fact, feel sick. I don’t need someone else to do a double blind study in order to determine that I feel sick. Or better. Or happy.

 

[sojourner]

That's why physical evidence is a good idea.

What physical evidence would you suggest to be a reliable marker of an interior shift?

 

[sojourner]

How is this not a perfect example of confirmation bias?

Believe you have received it before actually receiving it? That is called self delusion.

Or self-actualization ..,

 

[sojourner]

Nonsense. People only pray for themselves out of self interest, or altruistically for the benefit of others. They believe god can do something for them

Or not. People pray out of a sense of unity with creation. They want to align with what is larger than just them.