Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Sheldon]

What have I ignored? I am lost in a multitude of posts.

You made assertions about the nature of a realm you said was incomprehensible, and have repeatedly ignored this contradiction.

 

[sojourner]

Time to try to reason a bit. It is hard to observe events on the quantum level because the effects are so small. Small effects would not accomplish anything.

Perhaps you are appealing to quantum physics because it looks like magic to you. It isn't. The science that arises from it is still due to observable and predictable events. We have the math that it works by. It is not magic, but your beliefs are of magic. They are not observable, they are not predictable, and there is no explanation for them. Worst of all, just like magic, when properly observed the effects you claim go away.

Nope.

 

[sojourner]

That sounds like an unevidenced subjective belief.

It may be; I certainly don’t claim to have all the answers. I certainly hold to religion more as a provider of space for mystery than a purveyor of easy and solid answers to the ambiguities of life. I’m not a scientist. I’m a theologian. All I know is what I, myself have experienced happen to others, what has happened to me, and how I have been able, through energy work, to relieve others. I don’t know that there’s a “proof” other than that. I have only the proof of my own observation. Maybe there doesn’t need to be any proof. There certainly wasn’t proof of gravity before it was quantified mathematically, yet it still seemed to work. I can only speculate (without any certainty) that, just maybe, the physical proofs will manifest themselves in the “new physics” that lie beyond the Standard Model. Perhaps this works partially on the quantum level? But there certainly is a “force” if you want to call it that, which we don’t understand, that brings inert material to life, and I feel it’s that life force that is tapped into in prayer.

If that’s not “good enough” for you, that’s really your issue, not mine. I don’t need “answers.” I just hope and have faith that this work will, well, work. Thus far, it hasn’t let me down.

 

[sojourner]

Time to try to reason a bit. It is hard to observe events on the quantum level because the effects are so small. Small effects would not accomplish anything.

Perhaps you are appealing to quantum physics because it looks like magic to you. It isn't. The science that arises from it is still due to observable and predictable events. We have the math that it works by. It is not magic, but your beliefs are of magic. They are not observable, they are not predictable, and there is no explanation for them. Worst of all, just like magic, when properly observed the effects you claim go away.

apologies for the short answer earlier. I was fairly busy at the time.

No, I don’t look at quantum physics as “magic.” I look at it as science. But I also look for places where science and theology intersect, for both disciplines seek to make more of us, by giving us space to question, to explore, to embrace what we don’t fully understand. All I know is, the work I do has never failed to accomplish what I intend. Whether it taps into quantum fields or the Higgs Boson, or something beyond, and those minuscule effects are “enough” to nudge folks into some kind of relief — don’t really know. when push comes to shove, it doesn’t matter that I can’t “prove” anything to you. All I’m saying is that the energies that comprise us and make us live and continue can be acted upon. Music therapy is one “engine” that has yielded measurable results in affecting people beneficially. Maybe someday we’ll find a way to make consistent, measurable results happen; I really don’t know. but I’m satisfied for now.

 

[Subduction Zone]

apologies for the short answer earlier. I was fairly busy at the time.

No, I don’t look at quantum physics as “magic.” I look at it as science. But I also look for places where science and theology intersect, for both disciplines seek to make more of us, by giving us space to question, to explore, to embrace what we don’t fully understand. All I know is, the work I do has never failed to accomplish what I intend. Whether it taps into quantum fields or the Higgs Boson, or something beyond, and those minuscule effects are “enough” to nudge folks into some kind of relief — don’t really know. when push comes to shove, it doesn’t matter that I can’t “prove” anything to you. All I’m saying is that the energies that comprise us and make us live and continue can be acted upon. Music therapy is one “engine” that has yielded measurable results in affecting people beneficially. Maybe someday we’ll find a way to make consistent, measurable results happen; I really don’t know. but I’m satisfied for now.

But you are treating quantum physics as magic.

That is the problem. If you want to try to treat it as science and claim to have evidence you first need to answer this question:

What reasonable test based upon the claims of what Reiki can do could possibly refute your beliefs in Reiki?

 

[sojourner]

But you are treating quantum physics as magic.

That is the problem. If you want to try to treat it as science and claim to have evidence you first need to answer this question:

What reasonable test based upon the claims of what Reiki can do could possibly refute your beliefs in Reiki?

But I said that I don’t claim to have evidence of that; it’s merely conjecture. Perhaps YOU should try not treating spirituality as science? That seems to be a hang up for you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But I said that I don’t claim to have evidence of that; it’s merely conjecture. Perhaps YOU should try not treating spirituality as science? That seems to be a hang up for you.

Then you are pretty much admitting to believing in magic. You may be abusing "spirituality". It is not for healing people physically. That is not its purpose. Don't try and make claims for spirituality which requires others to treat it scientifically in the first place would be a good idea.

 

[Sheldon]

Then you are pretty much admitting to believing in magic. You may be abusing "spirituality". It is not for healing people physically. That is not its purpose. Don't try and make claims for spirituality which requires others to treat it scientifically in the first place would be a good idea.

Any claim that something can heal, can of course be objectively measured and tested.

 

[sojourner]

Then you are pretty much admitting to believing in magic. You may be abusing "spirituality". It is not for healing people physically. That is not its purpose. Don't try and make claims for spirituality which requires others to treat it scientifically in the first place would be a good idea.

Ok. Just lost all respect for you. Too bad; you seemed heretofore like a nice, reasonable person.

First of all, I’m a professional at what I do — I’ve been in this game for over 20 years. Got the degrees, the ordination, and the standing in a major denomination to back that up. I really don’t appreciate the lack of mutual respect. Second, You’re irreligious. You have no authority and no business passing judgment in the spiritual arena, Skeezix. Case in point: religion absolutely is for healing and wholeness, and if you don’t know that, you really don’t have any business pontificating on it. Remember Jesus healing people? Remember Peter healing the lame man? Maybe not… and before you go pontificating on the lack of factual history, you’d do well to remember that I know full well the metaphorical and mythic nature of the texts. The stories show us that yes, the purpose of religion is about bringing people to wholeness.

I’m merely attesting to my personal experiences and my witnessing of those of others. You’re the one demanding scientific evidence. I really couldn’t care less. Yes, I’m interested in the physical and scientific where they may intersect with spirituality, and offering some conjecture, but not in any way trying to say that this is factually the way it is.

what would be a really good idea, Cochise, is to stop trying to make the validity of religion all about scientific evidence and what would be a really, really great idea is for you to issue a public apology for assuming to tell me what I do and don’t know about my profession.

 

[sojourner]

Any claim that something can heal, can of course be objectively measured and tested.

Depends on what your definition of “healing” is. Wholeness is largely a state of the human spirit, and not particularly a medical condition.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok. Just lost all respect for you. Too bad; you seemed heretofore like a nice, reasonable person.

First of all, I’m a professional at what I do — I’ve been in this game for over 20 years. Got the degrees, the ordination, and the standing in a major denomination to back that up. I really don’t appreciate the lack of mutual respect. Second, You’re irreligious. You have no authority and no business passing judgment in the spiritual arena, Skeezix. Case in point: religion absolutely is for healing and wholeness, and if you don’t know that, you really don’t have any business pontificating on it. Remember Jesus healing people? Remember Peter healing the lame man? Maybe not… and before you go pontificating on the lack of factual history, you’d do well to remember that I know full well the metaphorical and mythic nature of the texts. The stories show us that yes, the purpose of religion is about bringing people to wholeness.

I’m merely attesting to my personal experiences and my witnessing of those of others. You’re the one demanding scientific evidence. I really couldn’t care less. Yes, I’m interested in the physical and scientific where they may intersect with spirituality, and offering some conjecture, but not in any way trying to say that this is factually the way it is.

what would be a really good idea, Cochise, is to stop trying to make the validity of religion all about scientific evidence and what would be a really, really great idea is for you to issue a public apology for assuming to tell me what I do and don’t know about my profession.

Sorry, but you were the one that crossed the line. You made the mistake of drinking the Kool Aid so to speak. And now you are promoting nonsense that is not healing.

Yes, a healthy mental mindset can be helped by spirituality and that can help in healing. But that does not mean that there are such artificial man made concepts as a "life force". You are abusing spirituality and may be doing more harm than good as a result.

 

[sojourner]

That's just hand waving.

"Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

It is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients...."

Have you considered that the studies are testing for the wrong result? The aim of prayer and other kinds of energy work is to bring about wholeness — not necessarily “fixing the physical problems” — although it can include that. I’ve personally witnessed it happen on a couple occasions.
I’m interested as to why you appear to misapprehended that?

 

[sojourner]

Sorry, but you were the one that crossed the line. You made the mistake of drinking the Kool Aid so to speak. And now you are promoting nonsense that is not healing.

Yes, a healthy mental mindset can be helped by spirituality and that can help in healing. But that does not mean that there are such artificial man made concepts as a "life force". You are abusing spirituality and may be doing more harm than good as a result.

Back off, man.

 

[sojourner]

Which is a good reason to not believe in the efficacy of prayer. If no test can show it works, even in theory, why believe in it?

What specifically do you mean by “efficacy?” You’re aware, of course, that prayer isn’t a magic wand, and was never intended to be so?

 

[sojourner]

BTW: all of you examples of things that make the test "invalid" wouldn't actually make them invalid; those tests would just be testing types of prayer that are different than the types you believe in.

Well, spirituality is a subjective, not objective endeavor, so it stands to reason that “doing what we believe in” might make all the difference in accomplishing our intentions for spiritual work.

 

[sojourner]

If you need a double-blind test to measure the efficacy of prayers, you have already lost.

What you need is something that does not require any test, nor statistics.

Take for instance someone who lost a limb, pray for it, see him grow a new limb, and you are in business.

Ciao

- viole

The “efficacy of prayer” is largely a subjective thing. That makes said efficacy no less real for the subject.

 

[sojourner]

If this one worked ─

James 5:14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
then nearly all the hospitals would be empty and Covid deaths would be remarkably lower for Christians.

But that's not the case.

You’re, of course, aware that the Greek word astheneo doesn’t necessarily refer to a physical illness? In fact, the context clearly shows it to mean “depressed” or “weak.” And prayer certainly can help alleviate these emotional states.

 

[sojourner]

So the research is about the alleged health benefits of regularly attending church. It presents no evidence for the efficacy of prayer.

What is “the efficacy of prayer?” Are you saying that prayer should be like a magic wand? If so you’re creating a straw man. Prayer can demonstrably help lower stress levels. I’d say that’s pretty damned efficacious for health.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Back off, man.

Now you are getting rather abusive because an idea of yours has shown to be almost certainly wrong. Why is that? If an idea of mine is shown to be wrong I accept it and move on.

 

[Sheldon]

Have you considered that the studies are testing for the wrong result?

Well I didn't design the study, and it tested recovery across a large test group for post heart op patients against a known median recovery rate. The clinical trials were also double blind, ad they showed no discernible result for those prayed for, against those who were not.

The aim of prayer and other kinds of energy work is to bring about wholeness — not necessarily “fixing the physical problems” — although it can include that.

If you say so, the claims for its efficacy were tested objectively, with a very carefully designed study, and it failed to offer any discernible effect.

I’ve personally witnessed it happen on a couple occasions.
I’m interested as to why you appear to misapprehended that?

I don't "misapprehend" anything, that is an unevidenced anecdotal claim, and I am curious why you don't comprehend that? The fact you claim to have witnessed something, and have reached a conclusion about what you saw is not remotely objective evidence. If I claimed I'd seen a mermaid, would you really be obliged to accept that as evidence?