Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[sojourner]

I read it, I see no objective evidence to support the original claim, pointing out something exists is not the same as evidencing life needs or has it. You also implied it was part of abiogenesis, and since science currently has no conclusive evidence for this hypothesis that can explain how it works, I'd have to deduce any claims about it are subjective ideas. Can you cite any scientifically peer reviewed work?

Here’s a link that I find fascinating:

I speculate that we have no explanations, because these fields of energy, interacting in these specific ways that manifest themselves as “energy work,” move beyond what Tong identifies as the Standard Model. We just don’t understand or have experiments to prove, but we think we know that *something* happens.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My point was that we can affect fields, and that fields can affect us. Thanks for helping to show that.

So what? If you want to claim that a field of some sort was involved you need to show evidence for it. If it was an electric or a magnetic field we would be able to detect it. But it appears that it is just a magic field.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Here’s a link that I find fascinating:

I speculate that we have no explanations, because these fields of energy, interacting in these specific ways that manifest themselves as “energy work,” move beyond what Tong identifies as the Standard Model. We just don’t understand or have experiments to prove, but we think we know that *something* happens.

I found a straw. It has nothing to do with the topic, but I found a straw!!

 

[sojourner]

I found a straw. It has nothing to do with the topic, but I found a straw!!

I think it has everything to do with the topic. If the fields that form reality intertwine in specific ways to form us, and if fields affect each other, it may stand to reason that our intentions and thought processes have more of an effect than we now understand.

 

[sojourner]

So what? If you want to claim that a field of some sort was involved you need to show evidence for it. If it was an electric or a magnetic field we would be able to detect it. But it appears that it is just a magic field.

Perhaps it’s a quantum field?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think it has everything to do with the topic. If the fields that form reality intertwine in specific ways to form us, and if fields affect each other, it may stand to reason that our intentions and thought processes have more of an effect than we now understand.

Or it may not. The time to believe that it does is when one finds evidence for that. And you do not have any evidence. Don't worry, most do not properly understand the concept of evidence when it comes to the sciences.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Perhaps it’s a quantum field?

Why would you believe that? And do you realize that quantum events happen on the quantum level. By themselves they have almost no effect on the macro level. That is unless there are a massive number of them. Then it looks just like classical physics. Appealing to the quantum level only makes the matter worse for you.

 

[PruePhillip]

Not when the Judaic Canaanites never left in the first place.

Actually, MANY of them did. The destruction of the Jordan Valley in ca 1650 BC (Sodom and Gomorrah were part of this) led to a huge exodus of Canaanites from this area. The same year the Hyksos overthrew the lower Egyptian Pharoh. Hyksos are Hittite/Canaanite/Semitic shepherds.
The story of Joseph is interesting. Egypt was under Hyksos rule in Joseph's day. But later the Hyksos were overthrown and many of them migrated back to the Levant and Anatolia, or became slaves.

 

[PruePhillip]

It was your claim, and then you started making assertions about it, a pretty obvious contradiction.



I don't, there is literally nothing one could not believe using faith alone, so it is useless in validating claims or beliefs.



Well it would, wouldn't it.

Ultimately, for many things you believe in 'faith' must ultimately pan out, be it your latest relationship, the person you voted into office or what your religion delivers.

 

[Sheldon]

I speculate that we have no explanations, because these fields of energy, interacting in these specific ways that manifest themselves as “energy work,” move beyond what Tong identifies as the Standard Model. We just don’t understand or have experiments to prove, but we think we know that *something* happens.

That sounds like an unevidenced subjective belief.

 

[Sheldon]

Ultimately, for many things you believe in 'faith' must ultimately pan out, be it your latest relationship, the person you voted into office or what your religion delivers.

This is semantics, people base their belief in their partners fidelity on evidence, as much as it is possible, and religious faith is defined as strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. You also might choose an example more successful that personal relationships, even if they succeed enough to end in a marriage, they then have over a 50% failure rate, so rather proving my point that faith is pretty useless in validating claims.

You still haven't addressed your contradiction of claiming a realm exists that is incomprehensible, in the same post you made several claims about it.

 

[PruePhillip]

This is semantics, people base their belief in their partners fidelity on evidence, as much as it is possible, and religious faith is defined as strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. You also might choose an example more successful that personal relationships, even if they succeed enough to end in a marriage, they then have over a 50% failure rate, so rather proving my point that faith is pretty useless in validating claims.

You still haven't addressed your contradiction of claiming a realm exists that is incomprehensible, in the same post you made several claims about it.

You base your relationship on first impressions/emotions and you trust that person enuf to committ - a leap of faith if you like. And that's religion too.
In fact the bible is a love story, in every book. And if you have spent your life in a religion that didn't deliver the peace, joy, love and proving of things for yourself then you are either in the wrong place or you don't understand. I often think about Catholics who 'pray the rosary' and do exactly what Jesus told them not to do - use 'vain repititions' in prayer. And why did Jesus warn about 'vain repititions'? Because you cannot build a relationship with God by chanting something.

 

[Sheldon]

You base your relationship on first impressions/emotions and you trust that person enuf to committ - a leap of faith if you like.

As I just explained, you ought not to pick an example with such a massive failure rate, as it proves my assertion that faith is a useless way to establish the veracity of a belief. I also explained we base our confidence in people on evidence, not faith, we would generally not voluntarily stay with someone when all the evidence suggested they didn't love us. I also pointed out that you're using semantics, as religious faith is not what your describing here, but then ignoring what people post, and responding with repetition does seem to be your raison d'etre.

 

[Sheldon]

In fact the bible is a love story, in every book.

You clearly haven't read it then.

if you have spent your life in a religion that didn't deliver the peace, joy, love and proving of things for yourself then you are either in the wrong place or you don't understand.

That's a no true Scotsman fallacy if ever there was one, and another explanations is that you're basing your belief like all other theists on biased subjective experience, which would explain why no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity.

I often think about Catholics who 'pray the rosary' and do exactly what Jesus told them not to do - use 'vain repititions' in prayer.

I often marvel at the theistic ability to ignore their own bias, in statements like that.

You still haven't addressed your contradiction, where you made assertions about the nature of something you said was incomprehensible, now why is that I wonder?

 

[PruePhillip]

You clearly haven't read it then.



That's a no true Scotsman fallacy if ever there was one, and another explanations is that you're basing your belief like all other theists on biased subjective experience, which would explain why no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity.



I often marvel at the theistic ability to ignore their own bias, in statements like that.

You still haven't addressed your contradiction, where you made assertions about the nature of something you said was incomprehensible, now why is that I wonder?

The love story of the bible is immensely symbolic of God's love for his people, it speaks of our relationship with God. The first that comes to mind is the bride for Isaac - a woman who hears of the Father's son from a messenger, and is prepared to leave everything she has in 'Sumer' and travel to a far country to marry this man she has never met. That's the Gospel in metaphor. It repeats throughout the bible with metaphors of the promised land, God's people, love for a country you have never been to, the lamb slain for our sin, the coming Redeemer who pays the price. This is all a love story.

 

[PruePhillip]

As I just explained, you ought not to pick an example with such a massive failure rate, as it proves my assertion that faith is a useless way to establish the veracity of a belief. I also explained we base our confidence in people on evidence, not faith, we would generally not voluntarily stay with someone when all the evidence suggested they didn't love us. I also pointed out that you're using semantics, as religious faith is not what your describing here, but then ignoring what people post, and responding with repetition does seem to be your raison d'etre.

What have I ignored? I am lost in a multitude of posts.

 

[sojourner]

Why would you believe that? And do you realize that quantum events happen on the quantum level. By themselves they have almost no effect on the macro level. That is unless there are a massive number of them. Then it looks just like classical physics. Appealing to the quantum level only makes the matter worse for you.

I don’t think so. Who’s to say what’s beyond the Standard Model?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don’t think so. Who’s to say what’s beyond the Standard Model?

Time to try to reason a bit. It is hard to observe events on the quantum level because the effects are so small. Small effects would not accomplish anything.

Perhaps you are appealing to quantum physics because it looks like magic to you. It isn't. The science that arises from it is still due to observable and predictable events. We have the math that it works by. It is not magic, but your beliefs are of magic. They are not observable, they are not predictable, and there is no explanation for them. Worst of all, just like magic, when properly observed the effects you claim go away.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The love story of the bible is immensely symbolic of God's love for his people, it speaks of our relationship with God. The first that comes to mind is the bride for Isaac - a woman who hears of the Father's son from a messenger, and is prepared to leave everything she has in 'Sumer' and travel to a far country to marry this man she has never met. That's the Gospel in metaphor. It repeats throughout the bible with metaphors of the promised land, God's people, love for a country you have never been to, the lamb slain for our sin, the coming Redeemer who pays the price. This is all a love story.

Yeah, I had a girlfriend like that once too. Dumping her was one of the smartest things that I ever did. The God of the Bible appears to be just like her, promising to pay for something that she did wrong while blaming you. Yeah, I know, the sex is great. But it is not worth the price that you pay. The only way to stay with such a psycho ***** is to go crazy yourself and trust me, you don't want to do that.

 

[Sheldon]

The love story of the bible is immensely symbolic of God's love for his people, it speaks of our relationship with God. The first that comes to mind is the bride for Isaac - a woman who hears of the Father's son from a messenger, and is prepared to leave everything she has in 'Sumer' and travel to a far country to marry this man she has never met. That's the Gospel in metaphor. It repeats throughout the bible with metaphors of the promised land, God's people, love for a country you have never been to, the lamb slain for our sin, the coming Redeemer who pays the price. This is all a love story.

Endorsing slavery, and ethnic cleansing, including infanticide, torturing a newborn baby to death over 7 days because it was conceived in an adulterous relationship, indiscriminate and relentless murder, including a global flood and genocide, advocating sex trafficking female prisoners, etc etc etc, maybe love means something different to you than me?