Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[sojourner]

The historic claim of the bible (as opposed to myth stories of the Greeks etc..) is that Abraham came from Sumer, via Syria into Canaan. His descendants lived there too. They witnessed various events, such as Sodom and Gomorrah. These people, like many Semites at the time, migrated to Egypt. The Semites were numerous enough to seize Egypt. During the Bronze Age Collapse the Jews and Phillistines left Egypt and settled in Canaan. The Jews were of 12 tribes, one of which we can track via DNA, that of Moses' line. Joshua conquered Canaan and built a 'place of cursing' which was found in 2022. After a period of conflict Israe established a monarchy - first Saul, then David, then Solomon. The Jews split into two nations. One nation was exiled by the Assyrians. The other nation went into captivity to Babylon. Cyrus the Great freed the Jews and many other nations. The Jews wrote of these Messiah who would come to redeem his people by playing the price - he would be rejected by his own people and crucified. This Jewish Messiah would return in triumph and the Jews would mourn when they see it's the same man they crucified. This Redeemer told his people they would go into exile and he would be believed upon of the Gentiles, until the Gentiles time is finished - which was last century.
Yeah, I am ok with this biblical narrative.

Except that the archaeological record disagrees with this. There’s no evidence of any large number of Canaanites in Egypt, no evidence of mass migration during the time period, no evidence of mass invasion of Canaan.

 

[sojourner]

Abiogenesis takes quite a while. And if you understood it at all you would know why it can't be replicated once more modern life exists.

There does not appear to be any evidence for a "life force". You can't show evidence for it. That means that you are claiming magic.

And you have almost certainly only fooled yourself into thinking that magic works. Confirmation bias can be very convincing.

Abiogenesis makes inanimate tissue live. And that life has energy fields that affect other energy fields. Call it what you will. It’s not magic; it’s How the World Works. Things affect other things.

 

[Sheldon]

How? We can’t make inanimate tissue initiate life. It’s beyond us; we don’t know how or why it begins. What do we call that? Every living thing has it. It exists, or nothing would be alive. What is it? What do we call it? “Life force.” Heck, call it “life impetus,” or even “troll booger” for all I care. But there exists some impetus and sustainer of life. Every living thing has energy, and it’s the same energy as every other living thing. Everything — everything is comprised of energetic fields and particles, interacting in different ways. People can sense these fields. Induction shows that we can even manipulate fields with our skin (think theremin), just as they can affect us (think static electricity and gravitational fields). Why shouldn’t we be able to affect the fields of the human body, as well? Fields are fields.

Sorry — it does work that way. I’ve seen it happen; I’ve made it happen; it has happened to me. Just because we can’t explain it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Can you give a detailed and evidenced explanation of what you think this "life force" is, and how it works? Beyond pointing to living things and making what appear to be bald assumptions that it is required. I am keeping an open mind, but simply assuming living things have it, because they need it, does appear to be a little circular, which is what I assume @Subduction Zone meant by a logical fail.

 

[Sheldon]

Abiogenesis makes inanimate tissue live.

Abiogenesis is the hypothesis that organic life arose from inorganic material. While tissue is the material which organic life is made of, so that's not quite accurate.

that life has energy fields that affect other energy fields.

It does? Can we see some objective evidence demonstrated for these "energy fields" and an accurate explanation of how they work?

Call it what you will. It’s not magic; it’s How the World Works. Things affect other things.

Well if it's not magic then you should be able to accurately explain how they work, and support the claim and the explanation with sufficient objective evidence. I don't blame @Subduction Zone for being sceptical, as we get an awful lot of claims for evidence on here, that end up being just subject belief making appeals to mystery and magic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Abiogenesis makes inanimate tissue live. And that life has energy fields that affect other energy fields. Call it what you will. It’s not magic; it’s How the World Works. Things affect other things.

Empty claims are of no value. If you cannot provide evidence you are merely claiming magic. Do you even know what a force is?

 

[Muffled]

It seems that the Apostle Paul contradicted himself because he also wrote, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.” So, which is, are people saved by grace through faith or are they required to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? It seems to me that the Apostle Paul couldn't make up his mind.

I believe the phrase "work out your salvation" means that the person is already saved, so the work is by grace.

 

[sojourner]

Can you give a detailed and evidenced explanation of what you think this "life force" is, and how it works? Beyond pointing to living things and making what appear to be bald assumptions that it is required. I am keeping an open mind, but simply assuming living things have it, because they need it, does appear to be a little circular, which is what I assume @Subduction Zone meant by a logical fail.

I’m no scientist, but I’ll do my best. Abiogenesis is a thing required for life to begin. We also know that life sustains itself. We know it’s an energetic process. We further know that energy is in the form of fields and particles, and that those fields and particles can be acted upon. These things can all be demonstrated.

 

[sojourner]

It does? Can we see some objective evidence demonstrated for these "energy fields" and an accurate explanation of how they work?

Simple. We know about magnetic fields. And gravitational fields. And we know about quantum particles. We know that all matter is comprised of atomic (and subatomic) particles. There is now evidence that these particles are energy arranged in a particular way, and that the particles, themselves, are where fields intersect. We also know that things can affect other things gravitationally and magnetically. This is science, not magic.

Abiogenesis is the hypothesis that organic life arose from inorganic material. While tissue is the material which organic life is made of, so that's not quite accurate.

And how does inorganic material become organic? Is it magic?

It does? Can we see some objective evidence demonstrated for these "energy fields" and an accurate explanation of how they work?

See above.

Well if it's not magic then you should be able to accurately explain how they work, and support the claim and the explanation with sufficient objective evidence.

I’m not a scientist. Can you explain how inorganic material becomes organic?

 

[sojourner]

Empty claims are of no value. If you cannot provide evidence you are merely claiming magic. Do you even know what a force is?

Seriously? You really need me to “prove” what’s already been proven? Play a theremin if you want proof. Type on your phone with your finger if you want proof.

 

[Sheldon]

I’m no scientist, but I’ll do my best. Abiogenesis is a thing required for life to begin. We also know that life sustains itself.

Abiogenesis as a requirement for life cannot be objectively demonstrated, this is just an hypothesis. Life cannot sustain itself without the conditions in which it merged and then evolved, and I don't see what this really explains that biological science doesn't?

We know it’s an energetic process.

You mean it involves energy?

We further know that energy is in the form of fields and particles,

Always?

and that those fields and particles can be acted upon.

What fields and particles, acted on how?

These things can all be demonstrated.

I though that was what i had asked you to do tbh. Provide an accurate description of what you mean by life force, then demonstrate objective evidence to support it and how it works.

 

[Sheldon]

And how does inorganic material become organic? Is it magic?

No one understands this yet, but no explanation can involve magic, by definition, since magic is just an appeal to mystery.

I’m not a scientist. Can you explain how inorganic material becomes organic?

So can you cite peer reviewed scientific evidence that explain what you mean? It seems a bit vague at the moment to be honest.

 

[Sheldon]

Abiogenesis makes inanimate tissue live. And that life has energy fields that affect other energy fields.

It does? Can we see some objective evidence demonstrated for these "energy fields" and an accurate explanation of how they work?

See above.

I read it, I see no objective evidence to support the original claim, pointing out something exists is not the same as evidencing life needs or has it. You also implied it was part of abiogenesis, and since science currently has no conclusive evidence for this hypothesis that can explain how it works, I'd have to deduce any claims about it are subjective ideas. Can you cite any scientifically peer reviewed work?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Seriously? You really need me to “prove” what’s already been proven? Play a theremin if you want proof. Type on your phone with your finger if you want proof.

Oh my! We know how theremins work. Use dead flesh in the same position and it will still work. So will a phone. They do not rely on "life force".

The two are rather similar:

How a Theremin Works.

"A theremin works by generating electromagnetic fields around two antennae. A straight, vertical antenna controls pitch; A horizontal, looped antenna controls volume. A masterful player makes very small, precise finger and hand movements in the field around the vertical antenna to change pitch and create melodies."

We can directly measure electromagnetic fields. There is no special "life force" electromagnetic field that has ever been demonstrated.

 

[PruePhillip]

Except that the archaeological record disagrees with this. There’s no evidence of any large number of Canaanites in Egypt, no evidence of mass migration during the time period, no evidence of mass invasion of Canaan.

The Canaanites in this case are the Hyksos, Semitic groups from the Levant and the Anatolia. They were mostly shepherds.
Interestingly, if the research on the Jordan Valley air strike pans out then it could show that the Hyksos overthrew lower Egypt the same year - coincidence? Maybe one immigration pulse too many for Egypt.
And mass migrations in the late Bronze were happening EVERYWHERE.
The mass migration in Canaan is problematic because there was warfare in the Levant all the time, and Jews were really just another Canaanite group culturally.
The question shouldn't be, 'Did Exodus happen?' but rather, 'How often did Exodus happen with different ethnic groups?'

 

[PruePhillip]

Repeating your unevidenced claim doesn't make it more compelling, and I already answered it, and you ignored the answer. Just as you have again ignored the fact that you claimed a realm exists that is incomprehensible, then proceeded to make claims and assertions about it. yet have refused to address this irrational contradiction.

These historic claims are now archaelogical ones. This year the discovery of proto-Hebrew text demolished another myth about the Jews not having their own god or language early Iron Age.

Is there a realm that is incomprehensible? Depends on your religion - that's a matter of faith.
Those who believe in the bible's claim hold there is a 'heaven' outside of the natural world. Evidence? That's not what faith is about. Why do you need faith instead of evidence? The bible states that faith can do a work in your life. Most stories in the bible focus upon this tenant.

 

[sojourner]

Oh my! We know how theremins work. Use dead flesh in the same position and it will still work. So will a phone. They do not rely on "life force".

The two are rather similar:

How a Theremin Works.

"A theremin works by generating electromagnetic fields around two antennae. A straight, vertical antenna controls pitch; A horizontal, looped antenna controls volume. A masterful player makes very small, precise finger and hand movements in the field around the vertical antenna to change pitch and create melodies."

We can directly measure electromagnetic fields. There is no special "life force" electromagnetic field that has ever been demonstrated.

My point was that we can affect fields, and that fields can affect us. Thanks for helping to show that.

 

[sojourner]

The Canaanites in this case are the Hyksos, Semitic groups from the Levant and the Anatolia. They were mostly shepherds.
Interestingly, if the research on the Jordan Valley air strike pans out then it could show that the Hyksos overthrew lower Egypt the same year - coincidence? Maybe one immigration pulse too many for Egypt.
And mass migrations in the late Bronze were happening EVERYWHERE.
The mass migration in Canaan is problematic because there was warfare in the Levant all the time, and Jews were really just another Canaanite group culturally.
The question shouldn't be, 'Did Exodus happen?' but rather, 'How often did Exodus happen with different ethnic groups?'

You’re wrong.

 

[Sheldon]

Is there a realm that is incomprehensible?

It was your claim, and then you started making assertions about it, a pretty obvious contradiction.

Why do you need faith instead of evidence?

I don't, there is literally nothing one could not believe using faith alone, so it is useless in validating claims or beliefs.

The bible states that faith can do a work in your life. Most stories in the bible focus upon this tenant.

Well it would, wouldn't it.

 

[PruePhillip]

You’re wrong.

One great Exodus we know of were the 'Sea People' who sought to overthrow Egypt. They had been successful in most places but not in Egypt. The Egyptians ambushed a naval expedition and captured these people. Egypt decided a good place to locate them would be the Levant, where Israel is today. So about the time of Moses these Sea People were forcibly (?) moved. They were known to the Hebrews as the Phillistines. When Israel was destroyed the Romans renamed their land Palestine, after the Phillistine enemies of Israel. Now Arabs there call themselves Palestinians. So like the return of the Jews to their promised land of Israel, history repeats itself. And shouldn't that be wonderful ?

 

[sojourner]

One great Exodus we know of were the 'Sea People' who sought to overthrow Egypt. They had been successful in most places but not in Egypt. The Egyptians ambushed a naval expedition and captured these people. Egypt decided a good place to locate them would be the Levant, where Israel is today. So about the time of Moses these Sea People were forcibly (?) moved. They were known to the Hebrews as the Phillistines. When Israel was destroyed the Romans renamed their land Palestine, after the Phillistine enemies of Israel. Now Arabs there call themselves Palestinians. So like the return of the Jews to their promised land of Israel, history repeats itself. And shouldn't that be wonderful ?

Not when the Judaic Canaanites never left in the first place.