Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Polymath257]

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I would call that “spirituality” — just using a different theological imagination. No invisible friend, just a vast universe with which I want to increasingly connect.

As I see it, there is no choice but to connect. We are part of the universe and are intimately connected to it.

 

[PruePhillip]

The funny thing is that all of this was a concern when I was growing up. I was a 'latch key child' since nobody was at home when I came home from school. Junior high and high school were always sexually charged and families were breaking down all around.

That makes me wonder if it was ever *really* that different. Divorces might not have been as easy to get, but that only meant *more* problems at home when parents hated each other and their situation. Religion was everywhere, but didn't seem to actually affect the bigotry and small mindedness of the adults. Community bonds only existed for those who went along with Mrs Grundy.

And this was in central Kansas during the 60's and 70's.

I'm wondering when you think that things were not 'broke'.

We had this student at our technical college ca 1967 (that dates me) who came from a broken family. We thought there was something wrong with him. Now about half that college would be students from broken homes. Something seriously shifted, and it began in the 1960's. My cousin came to our school - rumor was she was expelled from her local school over smoking or possessing marijuana. It was a big shock to us all. Same time. Same situation today - drugs are mainstream. We never locked our door.
Now we have the Woke brigade screwing up kids. And of course, the mass shootings of kids in school.

 

[Polymath257]

We had this student at our technical college ca 1967 (that dates me) who came from a broken family. We thought there was something wrong with him. Now about half that college would be students from broken homes. Something seriously shifted, and it began in the 1960's. My cousin came to our school - rumor was she was expelled from her local school over smoking or possessing marijuana. It was a big shock to us all. Same time. Same situation today - drugs are mainstream. We never locked our door.
Now we have the Woke brigade screwing up kids. And of course, the mass shootings of kids in school.

My mom was socially ostracized because her husband turned out to have another wife. That's how I came about. So, she essentially had a child out of wedlock. That meant the 'good people' in the society would not give her the time of day.

When I was born, Kansas still put 'illegitimate' on birth certificates. That's why I was born in Nebraska instead.

So, that shift? It was for the better: more freedom, more acceptance, and generally more happiness.

 

[PruePhillip]

My mom was socially ostracized because her husband turned out to have another wife. That's how I came about. So, she essentially had a child out of wedlock. That meant the 'good people' in the society would not give her the time of day.

When I was born, Kansas still put 'illegitimate' on birth certificates. That's why I was born in Nebraska instead.

So, that shift? It was for the better: more freedom, more acceptance, and generally more happiness.

Yeah, 15 years or so ago my mother confessed that I have an older brother. She and my father had it out of wedlock and it was hushed up.
There was shame. Like with crazies who have guns in some countries but won't go shooting schools up because there's this shame factor for their reputation and for their family. Get rid of shame and you can more or less do anything without social reproach - drugs, abortion, stealing, even killing grandma by convincing her she is a burden. If you have no shame you will pay a lot more in taxes for the government to protect you from weirdos, and to cover the loss of children who could be tax payers themselves one day.

 

[KWED]

There was shame. Like with crazies who have guns in some countries but won't go shooting schools up because there's this shame factor for their reputation and for their family.

So you are claiming that the main reason why people commit atrocities is because they don't have a concept of "shame"?
Any evidence for that opinion?
And how do you explain the highly religious committing mass killings and human rights abuses?

Get rid of shame and you can more or less do anything without social reproach

Actually it is more to do with dehumanising your victims in some way. Believing that they deserve it. Whether that is through political, social or religious ideologies is irrelevant to the underlying cause. Such people are not subject to "shame" because they believe they are doing the right thing.
The other issue is mental health. Someone suffering from a psychosis are not going to be concerned with "shame".

If you have no shame you will pay a lot more in taxes for the government to protect you from weirdos, and to cover the loss of children who could be tax payers themselves one day.

You still don't seem to have grasped that the rates of violent crime have been generally falling for decades.

 

[Sheldon]

And yet we seem to intuit that there’s more out there. And so we talk about it, wonder, imagine, and stretch ourselves. At least that’s religion to ME.

That's a part of the human condition to imagine, an essential component of science, but if we simply stop at believing what we imagine then it's flawed reasoning.

 

[PruePhillip]

So you are claiming that the main reason why people commit atrocities is because they don't have a concept of "shame"?
Any evidence for that opinion?
And how do you explain the highly religious committing mass killings and human rights abuses?

Actually it is more to do with dehumanising your victims in some way. Believing that they deserve it. Whether that is through political, social or religious ideologies is irrelevant to the underlying cause. Such people are not subject to "shame" because they believe they are doing the right thing.
The other issue is mental health. Someone suffering from a psychosis are not going to be concerned with "shame".

You still don't seem to have grasped that the rates of violent crime have been generally falling for decades.

View attachment 63816

Crime rates are ramping up again. They rose from about 1962 till 1992.
Here's something interesting. I am old to point out the rise in crime even during the early days of the 1960's.
Liberal minded people ALWAYS replied, 'That's just an increase in reporting.'
And after 1992 they ALWAYS said, 'Crime is going down, look at the statistics.' If I say it's a DECREASE in reporting to people just giving up reporting it then they would laugh at me. But I was just doing what they had been doing - explaining it away.

Yes, shame was a big deal. You heard of 'honor killings' ? There was family honor, sometimes (even today) family members are murdered for upsetting family honor. That goes back to an age when there were no police, security or cameras.

 

[PruePhillip]

That's a part of the human condition to imagine, an essential component of science, but if we simply stop at believing what we imagine then it's flawed reasoning.

I imagine that the universe created itself before it existed, and for no reason - now THAT'S quite an imagination.

 

[Sheldon]

Yeah, 15 years or so ago my mother confessed that I have an older brother. She and my father had it out of wedlock and it was hushed up.
There was shame. Like with crazies who have guns in some countries but won't go shooting schools up because there's this shame factor for their reputation and for their family.

Where to start with such a pernicious notion, firstly having a child out of wedlock is not a reason for shame but more worrying are you seriously saying the only valid reason you have for not committing indiscriminate mass murder is that you'd be ashamed afterward? Good gravy but superstition rots the brain.

Get rid of shame and you can more or less do anything without social reproach -

Nope, that is risible nonsense, and shame can be a very pernicious idea, when it is aimed at people who don't deserve it, because they fail to conform to religious bigotry for instance.

Get rid of shame and you can more or less do anything without social reproach - drugs, abortion, stealing, even killing grandma by convincing her she is a burden.

A classic slippery slope fallacy, which I will now disprove, I see nothing immoral in abortion, and whilst substance abuse, even alcohol, can be harmful, it can also be fun, even fantastic, but I would consider stealing and murdering someone because they were a burden to be deeply immoral, which rather destroys your slippery slope fallacy, oh and shame doesn't feature in my rationale at all.

If you have no shame you will pay a lot more in taxes for the government to protect you from weirdos, and to cover the loss of children who could be tax payers themselves one day.

You may already have no shame, or wouldn't have posted that asinine assertion.

 

[Sheldon]

Crime rates are ramping up again. They rose from about 1962 till 1992.
Here's something interesting. I am old to point out the rise in crime even during the early days of the 1960's.
Liberal minded people ALWAYS replied, 'That's just an increase in reporting.'
And after 1992 they ALWAYS said, 'Crime is going down, look at the statistics.' If I say it's a DECREASE in reporting to people just giving up reporting it then they would laugh at me. But I was just doing what they had been doing - explaining it away.

Yes, shame was a big deal. You heard of 'honor killings' ? There was family honor, sometimes (even today) family members are murdered for upsetting family honor. That goes back to an age when there were no police, security or cameras.

I see a lot of unevidenced anecdotal claims, but not one shred of objective evidence.

Also in Pinker's book, he asserted that violence had fallen steadily in the last couple of centuries. You are conflating all crime, worse still crime stats, with his claim, a false equivalence. However the real hilarity is your constant use of single anecdotes, why do you think pointing out violence is evidence against Pinker's claim, no one is saying no violent crime exists. It's as if you don't really understand the argument you're addressing.

 

[Sheldon]

I imagine that the universe created itself before it existed, and for no reason - now THAT'S quite an imagination.

Why do you imagine that?. Also thanks for providing an example of the flawed reasoning I was talking about.

 

[Sheldon]

We had this student at our technical college ca 1967 (that dates me) who came from a broken family. We thought there was something wrong with him. Now about half that college would be students from broken homes.

Rather proving that bigoted view of that student wrong then.

 

[Sheldon]

My cousin came to our school - rumor was she was expelled from her local school over smoking or possessing marijuana. It was a big shock to us all.

Indeed, unless she smoked it during college time on college premises it seems very harsh, just for a little pot. I mean if she was doing lines off the lecturers podium during a lecture, I can see it deserving censure, but that seems like overkill to me.

 

[PruePhillip]

Indeed, unless she smoked it during college time on college premises it seems very harsh, just for a little pot. I mean if she was doing lines off the lecturers podium during a lecture, I can see it deserving censure, but that seems like overkill to me.

This was our Australian secondary school, 1970.
But it was a big shock with heroin once, even the Mafia said it was 'too hot' to get involved with. Now look.

 

[PruePhillip]

Rather proving that bigoted view of that student wrong then.

Yes, you could say that. But I don't think anyone SAID anything, we just thought maybe he's broken too.
But now divorce is mainstream, and it has become a tragedy for millions of children. Sometimes we need to be 'bigots' when it comes to things like narcotics, marriage, adultery, gambling etc.. Because if you 'tolerate' something it can take over.

 

[PruePhillip]

Why do you imagine that?. Also thanks for providing an example of the flawed reasoning I was talking about.

More 'flawed reasoning':

The universe cannot create itself when it did not exist
Therefor something 'outside' the universe created the universe
And there needs to be a reason as all things have reasons for being.

 

[Subduction Zone]

More 'flawed reasoning':

The universe cannot create itself when it did not exist
Therefor something 'outside' the universe created the universe
And there needs to be a reason as all things have reasons for being.

Sorry but that is an error on your part. You appear to be trying to use classical physics on what would be a nonclassical even. At best one can only say "we do not understand what caused the start of the universe'.

There is no evidence for any one "who" or "what". And if one asks where did the energy come from it is possible to show that it did not have to come from anywhere. That is not necessarily claiming that the universe came from "nothing" it is merely a recognition that a universe from nothing does not break any physical laws.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We had this student at our technical college ca 1967 (that dates me) who came from a broken family. We thought there was something wrong with him. Now about half that college would be students from broken homes. Something seriously shifted, and it began in the 1960's. My cousin came to our school - rumor was she was expelled from her local school over smoking or possessing marijuana. It was a big shock to us all. Same time. Same situation today - drugs are mainstream. We never locked our door.
Now we have the Woke brigade screwing up kids. And of course, the mass shootings of kids in school.

Where are you getting your statistics from? At one point the divorce rate was almost half the marriage rate, yet even at its worst the figure was around 70% of people were never divorced. Do you understand how those to statistics do not disagree with each other?

Also, divorce rates are much higher than some Christian groups than they are for atheists. Evangelicals still have high divorce rates. Perhaps we need to make it a legal requirement to test drive thoroughly before a marriage. Evangelicals are not supposed to engage in premarital sex. That could be the cause of many of their divorces. Forced into a marriage to have sex and then finding that a person's partner is not sexually compatible can easily cause divorce.

Are you going to make it a law that a person has to screw his or her fiancee before marriage?

 

[KWED]

Crime rates are ramping up again. They rose from about 1962 till 1992.

They have increased slightly in the last few years, but nowhere near the levels of a few decades ago. Your argument was based on a steady and long-term rise in violence. The evidence contradicts that.

You also forgot to address my point about the causes of atrocities.

Here's something interesting. I am old to point out the rise in crime even during the early days of the 1960's.
Liberal minded people ALWAYS replied, 'That's just an increase in reporting.'
And after 1992 they ALWAYS said, 'Crime is going down, look at the statistics.' If I say it's a DECREASE in reporting to people just giving up reporting it then they would laugh at me. But I was just doing what they had been doing - explaining it away.

But we know that people are generally more prepared to report minor crimes than they used to be - especially domestic and sexual violence.

Yes, shame was a big deal. You heard of 'honor killings' ? There was family honor, sometimes (even today) family members are murdered for upsetting family honor. That goes back to an age when there were no police, security or cameras.

What? So you support "honour killings" as they maintain this essential concept of "shame" that you value so highly?
Sometimes, it's best to just stop digging and climb out of that hole.

 

[KWED]

Yes, you could say that. But I don't think anyone SAID anything, we just thought maybe he's broken too.

Ye gods...
"Yeah, I think black people are an inferior race, but I don't tell them so I'm not racist".
Can you even hear yourself?

Also, if no one said anything, how do you know that it wasn't just you with the irrational bigotry?