Double Minded Atheist

[ArtieE]

Someone who doesn't know can't actually also dis-believe. They also could not actually believe. It's a contradiction.

Where's the contradiction? I've never said you could believe or disbelieve in something you don't know about.

The 'Theism', implies believing in surety

No that would be "gnostic theism". Knowing for sure.

The problem is that you are differentiating between 'belief', and 'know',

There's no difference between "belief" and "knowledge"? Why do we have the word "atheist" for one who doesn't believe and the word "agnostic" for one who doesn't know then? I think you're just confused.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

All of the things you mention are based on assumption (I'd say faith) in self as physical being.

So what other option would realistically explain our experience? Are we in some kind of advanced simulation, and if so would "God" be simulated too?

 

[McBell]

Someone who doesn't know can't actually also dis-believe. They also could not actually believe. It's a contradiction.

Now if you could only explain that to and get them theists to agree....
Good luck with that.

Oh wait, you are not talking about actually knowing are you?
You are talking about claiming to know, right?

 

[Desert Snake]

Where's the contradiction? I've never said you could believe or disbelieve in something you don't know about.

Yes, of course you are implying that, if you combine 'agnostic', with either theism, or atheism.

No that would be "gnostic theism". Knowing for sure.

You don't seem to understand that ''theism'', and ''belief'', does not indicate whether someone believes they know something for sure, or not.

There's no difference between "belief" and "knowledge"?

There's only a contextual difference , in certain discussions. The use of ''belief'', in theism, does not indicate whether the person believes that they 'know' for sure, or they do not. You would have to have further explanation as to why they believe it /have that position/adherence

Why do we have the word "atheist" for one who doesn't believe and the word "agnostic" for one who doesn't know then? I think you're just confused.

Because 'agnostic', is a convenient label for people who want to take the position/adherence, of someone who isn't sure either way. Ie they don't have a 'theist' position, neither do they have a 'atheist' position.

No, you are confused because you are you are arbitrarily drawing a distinction between 'belief' and 'know', where there isn't one , inherently.

 

[ukok102nak]

I can't figure out what it is you're trying to say.

let's say we have a diffirent source
although it is a little bit older than the very written sources that is available in this present time of ours


:ty:



godbless
unto all always

 

[ArtieE]

Yes, of course you are implying that, if you combine 'agnostic', with either theism, or atheism.

Nonsense. Don't know how you manage to draw that conclusion.

You don't seem to understand that ''theism'', and ''belief'', does not indicate whether someone believes they know something for sure, or not.

Theists say "I believe" of course it doesn't indicate they know for sure, if they did they would be gnostic theists not just theists.

There's only a contextual difference , in certain discussions. The use of ''belief'', in theism, does not indicate whether the person believes that they 'know' for sure, or they do not.

Of course it doesn't. If they put gnostic in front of theist they indicate they know for sure.

Because 'agnostic', is a convenient label for people who want to take the position/adherence, of someone who isn't sure either way. Ie they don't have a 'theist' position, neither do they have a 'atheist' position.

They can perfectly well have the agnostic theist position that they believe gods exist without going as far as to say they know just like they can have the agnostic (hard) atheist position believing gods don't exist without going as far as to say they know.

No, you are confused because you are you are arbitrarily drawing a distinction between 'belief' and 'know', where there isn't one , inherently.

Sorry I'm afraid the confusion only exists on your side.

Theist: Believes God exists.
Atheist: Doesn't believe God exists.
Strong Atheist: Doesn't believe God exists + actively believes God doesn't exist.

Gnostic theist: Believes God exists and goes as far as to say he knows God exists.
Gnostic strong atheist: Believes God doesn't exist and goes as far as to say he knows God doesn't exist.
Agnostic theist: Believes God exists but doesn't go as far as to say he knows God exists. Doesn't know.
Agnostic atheist: Doesn't believe God exists but doesn't go as far as to say he knows God doesn't exist. Doesn't know.

 

[Desert Snake]

Nonsense. Don't know how you manage to draw that conclusion.Theists say "I believe" of course it doesn't indicate they know for sure, if they did they would be gnostic theists not just theists.Of course it doesn't. If they put gnostic in front of theist they indicate they know for sure.They can perfectly well have the agnostic theist position that they believe gods exist without going as far as to say they know just like they can have the agnostic (hard) atheist position believing gods don't exist without going as far as to say they know.Sorry I'm afraid the confusion only exists on your side.

Theist: Believes God exists.

Really?
So what would you call someone who believes in /a god, but does not adhere to said Deity? There are many such people.

Atheist: Doesn't believe God exists.
Strong Atheist: Doesn't believe God exists + actively believes God doesn't exist.

Gnostic theist: Believes God exists and goes as far as to say he knows God exists.
Gnostic strong atheist: Believes God doesn't exist and goes as far as to say he knows God doesn't exist.
Agnostic theist: Believes God exists but doesn't go as far as to say he knows God exists. Doesn't know.
Agnostic atheist: Doesn't believe God exists but doesn't go as far as to say he knows God doesn't exist. Doesn't know.

 

[ArtieE]

Really?
So what would you call someone who believes in /a god, but does not adhere to said Deity? There are many such people.

A theist is a person who believes in the existence of one or more gods. I have no idea what "but does not adhere to said Deity" is supposed to mean in that context.

 

[ArtieE]

let's say we have a diffirent source
although it is a little bit older than the very written sources that is available in this present time of ours

Why not stick with what is current and valid and up to date and makes sense in this present time of ours then?

 

[ukok102nak]

that is the very reason why
atheists and agnotics where been accused of being . . . ah whatever
could anyone consider someone who never believe in god/gods but know how to love and more merciful
than those
who only using the name of their god
for their own benefits but
never really stood from what they really believed instead they put some people to take the blame coz they never believe in god/gods

i've seen it all while the atheists and agnostics giving its details to satisfied each thoughtful and represented facts
while in the backstage i've heard
look at those people without god
how they could multiply when it is god
who says go out and multiply

and i say
as i a former agnostic i learned not to multiply by any lustful thoughts
coz im well inform to used my mind respectfully and not to believed easily
from any thoughts as long as it is
not entirely convincing

and as with the represented facts
as it is all here in my thoughts
as that someone who told that atheist and agnostics could not multiplied because one doesnt believe it and one is still having doubt

and i fought word by word (hate being physical)
fair and square that i even let that someone think everything it can thrown at me
scriptures via scriptures
anythin goes as they say until we realize
all we need is love and that is good for everyone
with god or without god
love that cannot lie as a fact that tells a solid evidence from everything thats doubtful from the beginning

ok now its just a testimony of mine
back to the topic
and hope i never offended anyone here


:ty:



godbless
unto all always


:ty:



godbless
unto all always

Why not stick with what is current and valid and up to date and makes sense in this present time of ours then?

 

[Acim]

So what other option would realistically explain our experience? Are we in some kind of advanced simulation, and if so would "God" be simulated too?

That we are dreaming, manifesting an illusion of existence whereby we are seemingly separate from our own (higher) selves and the essence of our being (God). If God is nowhere to be found, perhaps it is because we are using eyes that can't really see.

 

[viole]

That we are dreaming, manifesting an illusion of existence whereby we are seemingly separate from our own (higher) selves and the essence of our being (God). If God is nowhere to be found, perhaps it is because we are using eyes that can't really see.

This applies for everything our eyes cannot see. Including the things that do not exist.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That we are dreaming, manifesting an illusion of existence whereby we are seemingly separate from our own (higher) selves and the essence of our being (God). If God is nowhere to be found, perhaps it is because we are using eyes that can't really see.

There are three assumptions there, none of which can be substantiated or tested. Maya/illusion, higher self, God.
Or we have the single assumption that we are just intelligent apes.

Occams Razor?

 

[Willamena]

No they don't. The person who says he's a theist doesn't mention whether he's an agnostic or gnostic theist. The person who says he's an agnostic theist tells us specifically that he doesn't know.

They say precisely the same thing. All theists are, by this reckoning, agnostic whether they confess it or not.

 

[Willamena]

What is "belief in Theism"? Theism is the belief.Yes, knowing is the gnostic position. Either knowing gods exist or knowing gods don't exist.

There is no "gnostic position." People just made that up, thinking that they somehow compliment the agnostic with it. They don't.

 

[ArtieE]

They say precisely the same thing. All theists are, by this reckoning, agnostic whether they confess it or not.

What about those theists who are gnostic theists whether they confess to it or not?

 

[ArtieE]

There is no "gnostic position." People just made that up, thinking that they somehow compliment the agnostic with it. They don't.

Well that is a curious statement since gnostic is derived from the Greek word "gnosis" meaning "to know" and agnostic is from the Greek word "agnostos" meaning "unknown".

 

[Willamena]

Well that is a curious statement since gnostic is derived from the Greek word "gnosis" meaning "to know" and agnostic is from the Greek word "agnostos" meaning "unknown".

So?

 

[TruthEnder]

During 1958, Bertrand Russell, an English philosopher commented on whether "Atheist" or "Agnostic would be a better term for his religious beliefs about God. He wrote:

"I ought to call myself an agnostic; but, for all practical purposes, I am an atheist. I do not think the existence of the Christian God any more probable than the existence of the Gods of Olympus or Valhalla. To take another illustration: nobody can prove that there is not between the Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit, but nobody thinks this sufficiently likely to be taken into account in practice. I think the Christian God just as unlikely." 1,2

Something I don't understand is why you're posting a quote that mirrors my endeavor so that you can leverage the argument that weak atheism is... some sort of philosophical position?

 

[ArtieE]

So?

It is of course possible that the old Greek first had the word "agnostos" and then invented the word "gnosis" just to "compliment" the word "agnostos". Where did you get that from? Oh, I found a different source.
"from Greek agnostos "unknown, unknowable," from a- "not" + gnostos "(to be) known" (see gnostic)."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=agnostic