Down with Divorce

[Stevicus]

I agree. But so is having to renew things like your marriage license. I'm sure an associated "fee" will be thought up of and taken advantaged of by the government that over the years will far exceed any single legal fees that you would have for the divorce process to be carried out.

Personally the declaration a marriage requiring a license and paying a fee is a pretty silly thing, which essentially tells others that you two essentially own each other forever and the rest of the world is off limits to others as a potential lover.

Pay the judge, pay the priest, and after a while, pay the lawyer, and now pay for a renewal? ( You know something like that would eventually happen) Oh vey! :0)

I agree that the idea of a marriage "license" is pretty silly. If they're going to call it a "license," then maybe they should treat it as driver's licenses. People should have to take a written test and a road test before a license is issued.

 

[McBell]

People should have to take a written test and a road test before a license is issued.

Yeah, but a lot of religions frown on pre-marital sex.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I agree that the idea of a marriage "license" is pretty silly. If they're going to call it a "license," then maybe they should treat it as driver's licenses. People should have to take a written test and a road test before a license is issued.

Why is it you need a license to get married? You need a license to do that, to drive a car, hecks, you even need a license to catch a fish.

But any irresponsible twit can have a kid. No license required.

 

[Stevicus]

Yeah, but a lot of religions frown on pre-marital sex.

Even if they have a learner's permit?

 

[Stevicus]

Why is it you need a license to get married? You need a license to do that, to drive a car, hecks, you even need a license to catch a fish.

But any irresponsible twit can have a kid. No license required.

Yeah, I know. Seems kind of whack in a lot of ways.

I can see it with driving a car. After all, for reasons of public safety, we want to ensure that people have some level of competency before getting behind the wheel. Not sure about fishing licenses, although I can imagine some good societal-level reasons for having that.

Marriage licenses seem different, though, since they're more personal arrangements between individuals which really don't affect the society at large. It's a contract which shouldn't be entered into lightly, although on that subject, we don't really need licenses to sign contracts in general. For example, I might sign a contract for a rental car, but it would be no big deal. There'd be no ceremony or honeymoon to consummate the arrangement.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Marriage licenses seem different, though, since they're more personal arrangements between individuals which really don't affect the society at large. It's a contract which shouldn't be entered into lightly, although on that subject, we don't really need licenses to sign contracts in general. For example, I might sign a contract for a rental car, but it would be no big deal. There'd be no ceremony or honeymoon to consummate the arrangement.

When I got married the first time, we had to get a blood test to obtain the license. Seemed a bit excessive to me given people could procreate without being married.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From what I remember, handfastings were common in Celtic culture, in which both partners would take on a trial year and a day.

I'd be interested in seeing references describing handfastings and how they differer from engagements. I'd particularly like to learn if the partners lived together or, conversely, continued to live separately and, presumably, celibate.

 

[ChristineM]

Why is it you need a license to get married? You need a license to do that, to drive a car, hecks, you even need a license to catch a fish.

But any irresponsible twit can have a kid. No license required.

This ^^^ made me look up what was needed for a foreigner to get married in france. We were married in the UK in 1995 and again in france in 2009. The marriage in France was to ease the inheritance laws laid down by Bonaparte

So the search began with this answer.

What Does a Foreigner Need to Get Married in France?

• Birth certificates, which should be less than six months old. ...
• A valid proof of domicile or residence. ...
• A valid passport or ID card. ...
• A certificate of celibacy (Certificat de Celibat) confirming that you're not already married.

The first item on the list has got me very confused.

Also the last item wasn't necessary, we were already married.

But no license...

 

[Stevicus]

When I got married the first time, we had to get a blood test to obtain the license. Seemed a bit excessive to me given people could procreate without being married.

Arizona doesn't require blood tests. However, the fee for a marriage license is $83.

Marriage Licenses | Maricopa County Clerk of Superior Court

Effective August 3, 2018, if you are under 16 years of age, you are prohibited from marrying.

If you are at least 16 years of age and under 18 years of age, the following are required:

• either a certified copy of an Emancipation Order, OR a notarized Clerk's Office parental consent form along with the front and back of your parent(s) or legal guardian's identification, or have your parent(s) or legal guardian accompany you and present proper identification and sign the parental consent form in the presence of the clerk issuing your marriage license; and
• a copy of your birth certification; and
• one of the following government issued picture I.D.'s is required:
  1. current driver's license;
  2. state or military I.D. card;
  3. current passport;
  4. or other governmental issued picture I.D
• The younger applicant's prospective spouse cannot be more than 3 years older than the younger applicant.

Both parties must be present to obtain a marriage license. Each individual is required to provide a valid government-issued photo I.D., such as a driver's license, passport, etc. to show proof of age and confirm identity.

Note: Effective May 28, 2021, a Matricula Consular I.D. card will be accepted as a valid form of identification for any type of marriage license to be issued, as long as the foreign government has used biometric identity verification techniques (i.e. fingerprint identification, retina scans, etc.) in issuing the consular identification card. Arizona Revised Statute 25-121(B) requires applicants to provide their social security number (SSN), if any. Except for child support purposes, the Clerk's Office may not release SSNs without the applicant's written request.

A copy of a divorce decree is not required; blood tests are not required.

• Complete the marriage license application form
• A marriage license must be issued prior to the ceremony taking place, signed at completion of the ceremony, and returned by the officiator not more than 30 days after the ceremony has taken place in order for the license to be recorded.
• You will receive your marriage license on the same day you apply for the license, and can be married on the same day, if you have made arrangements with an officiator of your choice to perform the ceremony. However, you have up to one (1) year from the date the marriage license was issued to get married, as the license expires one (1) year from the date of purchase.
• After the bottom portion of the license has been returned and recorded, a certified copy can be requested and mailed to you for an additional $37.50 payable at the time you apply for the license or any time afterwards, or $30.50 if you provide a business-size, self-addressed stamped envelope at the time of your request.

The fee for a marriage license is $83.00 payable by cash or money order, debit card or credit card.

If you are purchasing a license at the Justice Courts, only money orders are accepted. After the bottom portion of the license has been returned and recorded, a certified copy can be requested and mailed to you for an additional $37.50 payable at the time you apply for the license or any time afterwards, or $30.50 if you provide a business-size, self-addressed stamped envelope at the time of your request.

The fee to convert a traditional license to a covenant marriage is $30.00.

 

[Audie]

Worked for me

 

[Heyo]

I agree. But so is having to renew things like your marriage license. I'm sure an associated "fee" will be thought up of and taken advantaged of by the government that over the years will far exceed any single legal fees that you would have for the divorce process to be carried out.

True, I hadn't thought of that.

Personally the declaration a marriage requiring a license and paying a fee is a pretty silly thing, which essentially tells others that you two essentially own each other forever and the rest of the world is off limits to others as a potential lover.

I've heard similar proposals like this before. I've also heard those who say that the state should get out of the marriage and divorce business altogether.

A marriage is not a contract between two parties but at least three, bride, groom and the state. The state (usually) grants some tax benefits to the married couple, that's why they have a say in the matter.

 

[Stevicus]

A marriage is not a contract between two parties but at least three, bride, groom and the state. The state (usually) grants some tax benefits to the married couple, that's why they have a say in the matter.

Yes, the state has had a hand in it, as it's in the interests of the state to have couples get together, have children, so they can become soldiers in the military - or workers in the fields or factories. And the church gets more souls.

I don't know if that's really so much of a necessity anymore in today's society. Is it in the state's interest to encourage marriage?

 

[Nimos]

Marriages should have term limits (3-5 years) where the participants must actively choose to extend the commitment. They should constantly evaluate and reevaluate the legal, financials and personal entanglement, and decide whether the partnership is working to support their needs as an individual, as a parent, as a partner, and whatever else the persons involved deem important. Get rid of divorce. Give us re-enlistments!

Wouldn't it be easier for people to just sign a contract that gave them the same benefits as being married and then they could abolish it at any time if things weren't working out?

 

[Wu Wei]

Why is it you need a license to get married? You need a license to do that, to drive a car, hecks, you even need a license to catch a fish.

But any irresponsible twit can have a kid. No license required.

so, just out of curiosity, what exactly would be the fine and/or punishment be for having a child if you were an unlicensed parent?

 

[Quintessence]

HAHAHAHA... okay, I'll have to remember this one for my friendships and all other relationships of any kind that I have. They've got term limits now, everyone! Sorry, gonna cut you loose now! Sounds like a fantastic way to manage relations, yeah? LOL. Maybe for a lawyer it does.

 

[Stevicus]

Maybe marriage could be changed to something I remember from Star Trek: Enterprise, with the character of Dr. Phlox. On his planet, everyone has three spouses. So, he had three wives, each of whom also had three husbands. And they're all open marriages; there's apparently no such thing as adultery in that culture.

Perhaps we could do something like that.

 

[Wu Wei]

Might come as a shock to some here....but Marriage is work.... it is not all sunshine and roses.... there are ups and downs..... just because you are having a bad day, week, month, does not automatically mean the solution is divorce..... it takes thinking and discussion and sometimes to simply for one to suck it up buttercup and deal with it.

There are reasons for divorce, I had one myself, my first marriage, but an argument or two is not generally good grounds for a divorce

 

[ppp]

That can work as long as there are no Kids, once kids are involved, marriage contracts should be until all the children are over 18 and out of High School. All financial, legal and personal entanglements must involve the best interests of the children first and then the parents second.

You are assuming that unhappy marriages, or marriages that are merely a facade are in the best interest of the children. I didn't intend to get this serious in this thread, but since you bring up the topic of children -- The scientific consensus on the effects of unhappy marriages on children highlights several significant impacts. Children in homes with constant conflict or stress may develop issues such as chronic depression or behavioral problems. They often internalize their parents' conflicts, which can lead to low self-esteem and self-doubt. These children might blame themselves for their family's unhappiness and question their actions and worth.

When people say think of the children, what they are really saying is think of the idealistic and unrealistic attitudes of tradition.

4 Reasons Why a Bad Marriage Is Worse for Children Than Divorce

Staying in a toxic marriage can cause more damage than good. Here's how:

www.psychologytoday.com

How Staying in an Unhappy Marriage Can Affect Your Children | Weiss-Kunz & Oliver, LLC

What are some ways staying in an unhappy marriage can affect your children? Contact an Elmhurst divorce attorney for details and assistance.

www.wkofamilylaw.com

 

[ppp]

Might come as a shock to some here....but Marriage is work.... it is not all sunshine and roses.... there are ups and downs..... just because you are having a bad day, week, month, does not automatically mean the solution is divorce..... it takes thinking and discussion and sometimes to simply for one to suck it up buttercup and deal with it.

There are reasons for divorce, I had one myself, my first marriage, but an argument or two is not generally good grounds for a divorce

A good grounds for divorce is wanting to not be married.

 

[JustGeorge]

I think @Aupmanyav brings up a good point. What happens to children that were born during the term of the commitment once the commitment ends?

I imagine it would be the same as any other divorce, or separation.

I agree. But so is having to renew things like your marriage license. I'm sure an associated "fee" will be thought up of and taken advantaged of by the government that over the years will far exceed any single legal fees that you would have for the divorce process to be carried out.

Personally the declaration a marriage requiring a license and paying a fee is a pretty silly thing, which essentially tells others that you two essentially own each other forever and the rest of the world is off limits to others as a potential lover.

Pay the judge, pay the priest, and after a while, pay the lawyer, and now pay for a renewal? ( You know something like that would eventually happen) Oh vey! :0)

I never understood the license...

That can work as long as there are no Kids, once kids are involved, marriage contracts should be until all the children are over 18 and out of High School. All financial, legal and personal entanglements must involve the best interests of the children first and then the parents second.

Staying together for the kids isn't always a good idea. I sincerely wished my parents had divorced sooner; they held off for a long time "for the kids". All that resulted in was living in an uncomfortable zone full of resentment and anger. Mom didn't take it out on us(Dad was unkind to everyone, hence Mom's distaste for him), but the house didn't feel 'good'. None of my friends wanted to visit due to it.

I never married my oldest son's father. That would have been bad. Really bad.

I'd be interested in seeing references describing handfastings and how they differer from engagements. I'd particularly like to learn if the partners lived together or, conversely, continued to live separately and, presumably, celibate.

I'll see if I can dig anything up once my brain wakes up.

From what I remember, handfasted partners enjoyed all the same benefits as fully married couples.

Arizona doesn't require blood tests. However, the fee for a marriage license is $83.

Marriage Licenses | Maricopa County Clerk of Superior Court

I had to pay 35 bucks. No blood test.

so, just out of curiosity, what exactly would be the fine and/or punishment be for having a child if you were an unlicensed parent?

That's what I've always thought when people who suggest such. Its nice to think 'accidents' don't happen, but they do.

I had a friend who's mother had three children; two were pregnancies from birth control that failed. My oldest was unplanned.