Draw Muhammad day

[predavlad]

First of all - I do not want to start an inflammatory post - I just want to see the other side of the argument.

I've seen many violent actions taken by some Muslims in regard to the freedom of expression that some artists showed by drawing Muhammad, but I tend to believe there is another side of things.

I simply wish to know why Muslims are offended by drawings of their prophet, and what action does the Qu'ran instruct against people inside or outside Islam that draw Muhammad.

PS: The event known as "Draw Muhammad day" is actually on my birthday - I found this out recently, but I will not participate, even though I understand the sentiments behind it.


Anticipated thanks to all the Muslims out there that are willing to enlighten me.

 

[Cordoba]

Hello there Predavlad, and welcome to the Islam DIR corner

Muslims love Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, more than they love their parents, children or spouses. It is a very natural human reaction to feel offended when an uninformed artist mocks our beloved Prophet, and it is sad that some people today love to incite hatred among people rather than promote peace and positive co-existence

The best option (imo) is simply to ignore such provocations, and instead inform the misinformed of who Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, really was

Muslims in the UK took a positive initiative a couple of years ago titled (Inspired by Muhammad), and produced a set of short videos, which are available on youtube, including this beautiful song by Maher Zain titled "The Chosen One":

[youtube]QbICjWI7Vrw[/youtube]
Maher Zain - The Chosen One |

Responsible Freedom of Expression is not equivalent to freedom of insulting and offending others

One important concept which I think we can all agree to is that your freedom to extend your arms ends where others stand ...

Would you agree to that?

 

[predavlad]

Hello Cordoba, thank you for the welcome.

The best option (imo) is simply to ignore such provocations, and instead inform the misinformed of who Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, really was

I agree that you and most moderate Muslims choose to take this reasonable standpoint. But do the Muslims who do not take this standpoint find justification for their actions in the Qu'ran?

Responsible Freedom of Expression is not equivalent to freedom of insulting and offending others

I partially agree with this. But, I've met people who were extremely offended when I told them that I am an atheist.

So if we would live our lives as to never offend anyone - it would mean to not do anything at all


There is one more thing I am having some trouble grasping. Many Christians have the same love and respect for Jesus as Muslims have for Muhammad. Yet they don't get offended (at least not to the same extent) when they see a caricature of Jesus.

I don't think I can find an example of what I love more than my parents, if I would a see a caricature of them I may be offended, but I would also laugh if it's a good one. And that's what caricatures are supposed to be: funny, but with a grain of truth.

I really would like a Muslim to step out and say: "This is extremely offensive. But at least it's funny"

PS: The song is quite nice

 

[Pastek]

What happened exactly in "Draw Muhammad day" ?

Some people angry in Afghanistan and Pakistan ...
Maybe some here and there in Europe or USA, but nothing more.

I agree that you and most moderate Muslims choose to take this reasonable standpoint. But do the Muslims who do not take this standpoint find justification for their actions in the Qu'ran?

Here, what said God about provocation :

6.108 And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.

It can hurt some people, because of course we love very much the Prophet Muhammad . And it's sad to see people hating him so much. But everybody is different, some will ignore them, some will thing they have to stop this ...
It's very complicated, because it's something kinda new for muslims.

Many Christians have the same love and respect for Jesus as Muslims have for Muhammad. Yet they don't get offended (at least not to the same extent) when they see a caricature of Jesus.

You know, in France there was a exposition recently named "the **** christ"
Some christians Broke the picture in the exposition. Some people/media said they were "christian integrist".
And some of them said they had enought that people make always fun about their religion, and have no respect for Jesus.

Tell me :
How can someone put the picture of a man- loved by billions of people (christians and muslims)-, into urine, and think that he will have NO reaction ?

Why insulting other faiths ?
Of course, an action will have a reaction
Maybe not by all the communauty, but by some people.

Critisizing a religion or a man it's a thing, but insulting is something else.
People talk about "expression" , yes but it has its limits.

Look at this video. It's a good exemple about what's going on today with Islam :

[youtube]R0ukNTWOOXM[/youtube]
Thierry Ardisson: A Hypocrite! - YouTube

I really would like a Muslim to step out and say: "This is extremely offensive. But at least it's funny"

I don't know from which country you are, but i can tell you that in France arabs and muslims are regularly mocked since many years.
I can give you many links about that (if you speak french), and muslims and arab people didn't said anything. And yes, some even think it's funny or can make fun about themselfs.

And France, is the country with the most highest percent of muslims in Europe.
Did you see or heard of someting about Muhammad's cartoon ? Nothing

 

[Pastek]

Ah, i see the word before "christ" was censured.

So, if you want to see what it was, here the link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_Christ

 

[Rational_Mind]

You see the respect we have for a Prophet is far above parents. So there can nothing be said about a person who choses to honour something at such a level. There is surely something everyone holds so dear that they will be immensely offended. So there is definitely no dispute to be had on why they are offended. This is there personal reason of who they choose to respect. People should rather ask what was so wonderful about someone who is so respect among Muslims.

Now onto what Muslims are instructed to do. I as an Ahmadi Muslim was told by our Khalifah (Spiritual Successor to the Promised Messiah) to take this as opportunity to teach other faiths about the Holy Prophet (saw) character. Also to reason with the artists and let teach them that we should not ignite fuel when we know there are Muslims in the world who would explode on such a sensitive issue. Then these same people would point fingers and blame it on them. So is there intention really to promote freedom or to find the insensitive people and burn their insides while letting them know they cannot do anything. When they are completely burned they know someone will erupt, they wait for this then point fingers.

Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet. O ye who
believe! you should invoke blessings on him and salute also him
with the salutation of peace. Verily, those who malign Allah and
His Messengers - Allah has cursed them in this world and in the
Hereafter, and has prepared for them an abasing punishment.
(Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:57-58)

So whichever Prophets they malign it is Allah (swt) who will administer punishment.

These attacks are not new to Islam. They keep coming from different directions and they are were well planned so they incite then point fingers. There is nothing in the teachings telling them to react that way, it is rather a person who is so burned on the inside that it is out of their control. If I know there is a person who is sensitive, like a child, why would I knowingly incite the child, especially if that child is capable of using a gun. When we see bullying we blame the bully not the bullied. Here it is the opposite that happen, it shows clear hypocrisy and the intent of such people. How many incidents do we know of where the bullied either committed suicide or murdered the bully. When this happens and we read the comments on the news section and everyone says the Bully asked for it. But when it is the same on Islam then they call under the Freedom flag and promote a day dedicated to this act saying everyone join.

 

[predavlad]

Spoiler alert: I will probably get slightly more offensive with each post. Please tell me when I reach the limit because I actually don't want to start an inflamatory post.

Some people angry in Afghanistan and Pakistan ...
Maybe some here and there in Europe or USA, but nothing more.

You are taking the serious things that happened very lightly.

There were over 100 reported deaths, the Danish embassy in Pakistan was bombed, the ones in Syria, Lebanon and Iran were set on fire, many embassies in western countries were stormed and ravaged and countless assassination attempts to the person who drew the cartoon. Also, the people protesting requested that he should be put to death - in a country that is not under Sharia law.

That strikes me as slightly hypocritical - using freedom of expression to abolish freedom of expression. But moving on.

Now I'm sorry, but this is too extreme and I just can't understand it. Nothing can justify the things that were done to a person that expressed the free speech he was allowed to express by the laws of the country he lives in.

Doesn't the Qu'ran teach to respect the law of the country you are in? If the law of that country allows this sort of freedom of expression, shouldn't Muslims listen to the Qu'ran?

That's about it for now. I just wanted to mention that in this case - Islam is the bully. Hands down. You can't compare drawing cartoon to killing people and destroying property.

That's it for now, I really hope you reply because the discussion is just heating up

 

[Pastek]

There were over 100 reported deaths, the Danish embassy in Pakistan was bombed, the ones in Syria, Lebanon and Iran were set on fire, many embassies in western countries were stormed and ravaged and countless assassination attempts to the person who drew the cartoon. Also, the people protesting requested that he should be put to death - in a country that is not under Sharia law.

You know perfectly that those countries are full of extremists or tensions.
So, of course the reaction is more violent. It doesn't surprise me.

Now I'm sorry, but this is too extreme and I just can't understand it. Nothing can justify the things that were done to a person that expressed the free speech he was allowed to express by the laws of the country he lives in.

Who are you talking about ?

Doesn't the Qu'ran teach to respect the law of the country you are in? If the law of that country allows this sort of freedom of expression, shouldn't Muslims listen to the Qu'ran?

Yes. But you are talking about what exactly here ?

You can't compare drawing cartoon to killing people and destroying property.

I'm talking about the limits. When you know that there is a lot of tensions, when you know some people react in a violent way, when you are hurting people just to make money or because you want to say " i do what i want" like a kid. Then, no need to point all a community/religion after.
This is the reality of the world we live in. Everybody takes its responsability.

I don't say it's ok to kill someone because of that. I'm just saying it's not the moment to doing this when the world is full of tensions.

You know what we see after those cartoons and the death of a man ?

-Many violence. Like you said people died in Pakistan, embassy bombed... etc
-A priest wanted to burn the Quran, americans in Afghanistan were in a bad position
-Some of american soldiers thrown the Quran on the toilet or they burnt it in Afghanistan some months ago i heard

I mean, all these for what ?
We don't live in the world of the care bears

It's better to be responsable and make good things that can help people, instead of putting the world upside down.

Now everybody knows that it can be dangerous. If someone want to draw Muhammad then it's his problem, he takes his own responsability.

 

[Gharib]

Spoiler alert: I will probably get slightly more offensive with each post. Please tell me when I reach the limit because I actually don't want to start an inflamatory post.

Let me say this out in the open from the beginning. I think you are being dishonest and are just sugar coating your posts. In the OP you said:

"I just want to see the other side of the argument."

and you were quick to see the other side of the argument without even having had received a reply to your post:

"I just wanted to mention that in this case - Islam is the bully. Hands down. You can't compare drawing cartoon to killing people and destroying property."

I am usually a nice person but I very much dislike dishonest people. If you are here just to spout some crap I suggest you stop now.

You are taking the serious things that happened very lightly.

Such hypocrisy from a small statement.

There were over 100 reported deaths, the Danish embassy in Pakistan was bombed, the ones in Syria, Lebanon and Iran were set on fire, many embassies in western countries were stormed and ravaged and countless assassination attempts to the person who drew the cartoon. Also, the people protesting requested that he should be put to death - in a country that is not under Sharia law.

And? Although, I strongly disagree with killing an innocent person. Why are you offended by the burning of an embassy?

Moreover, why are you and those who think like you (the cartoonist himself) so offended by Muslims practicing their religion that they have to go to such an extreme as mock our Prophet and our faith? Did we do anything?

That strikes me as slightly hypocritical - using freedom of expression to abolish freedom of expression. But moving on.

Doesn't it also strike you that people use freedom of expression to insult people for no reason? Honor is a word very rarely used in the western world because people have nothing to associate it with, however, Muslims do have what to associate it with and we protect the honor of others and of ourselves.

To us making a mockery of our prophet is called extremism. So don't play the victim card when we reply back. If you don't like it when we get angry then leave us alone. Surely that's reasonable and understandable.

Now I'm sorry, but this is too extreme and I just can't understand it. Nothing can justify the things that were done to a person that expressed the free speech he was allowed to express by the laws of the country he lives in.

So why is it wrong in your view to burn embassies if no laws of the country were violated? Do you see the hypocrisy?

Doesn't the Qu'ran teach to respect the law of the country you are in? If the law of that country allows this sort of freedom of expression, shouldn't Muslims listen to the Qu'ran?

Islam teaches to guard ones honor and to not speak ill of the dead or mock them. Shouldn't Muslims listen to their own religion?

That's about it for now. I just wanted to mention that in this case - Islam is the bully. Hands down. You can't compare drawing cartoon to killing people and destroying property.

And that's according to whom exactly? You.

How is Islam the bully if someone initiated the attack? You'd think the bully is the one who extends his arm over to your side.

That's it for now, I really hope you reply because the discussion is just heating up

Yeah it is heating up and it is in the Islam DIR, that's not permitted here. You are allowed to ask respectful questions other than that you have no freedom of expression of any type and this thread might get deleted.

I too really hope you can reply because the discussion is now going exactly to where you wanted.

 

[Penumbra]

***Staff Advisory***

This thread has been moved based on staff consensus from the Islam DIR to the debates area.
​

 

[LeftishBritInPA]

*edit*

I completely agree, Troubled. I can't tell you how many xtians there are that say the same about je$us. imagine - loving some 1st century carpenter who claimed to be his own father more than your own mother or your brother or sister. To me, freedom is more sacred than any god or prophet. We must be allowed to draw pictures of je$us or m0hammed without any penalty, without any retribution. Only when the insults, persecution and demonization of atheists has stopped will the should "offensive" cartoons stop. Draw m0hammed day is a celebration of free speech, of western ideals. It is encouraging to see people standing as one, refusing to allow the forces of religious bigotry to mow us down with bullets of hate or bombs of malice. Our resolve will not be lessened by religious bigots who do not understand basic human rights. The right to question dogma and the right to be free from religion.

 

[arthra]

I think there is a culture clash here that could only occur in today's world.. Muslims have traditionally been prohibited from making images of the Prophet..this has been a centuries long practise.. then to have someone mock the Prophet with a drawing is insulting and degrading to them. I can understand this and I'm not a Muslim..but I would not react with violence.

There is also the so-called "Christ-****" which I wouldn't even want to reference here but it can be googled...here an image of Christ is submerged in urine..

So what is going on here?... People today want to degrade and insult religion in any way they can...

 

[predavlad]

Let me say this out in the open from the beginning. I think you are being dishonest and are just sugar coating your posts. In the OP you said:

"I just want to see the other side of the argument."

and you were quick to see the other side of the argument without even having had received a reply to your post:

"I just wanted to mention that in this case - Islam is the bully. Hands down. You can't compare drawing cartoon to killing people and destroying property."

I am usually a nice person but I very much dislike dishonest people. If you are here just to spout some crap I suggest you stop now.

Well, I wanted to hear the other side of the argument, but not condone ignorance.

And? Although, I strongly disagree with killing an innocent person. Why are you offended by the burning of an embassy?

Moreover, why are you and those who think like you (the cartoonist himself) so offended by Muslims practicing their religion that they have to go to such an extreme as mock our Prophet and our faith? Did we do anything?

The question is why aren't you? Many Muslim leaders claim that Islam is a religion of peace - and these actions contradict that statement, and make a very bad name for Islam. If you really want to claim that Islam is a religion of peace - every reasonable Muslim out there (like yourself, and probably every Muslim on this forum) should openly accuse these violent acts.

Do you know why I care? Maybe it's just a sense of fairness I have. I also care about the people in Rwanda (an AIDS infested country) who were told by the pope that condoms are immoral and should not be used. Or maybe it's the fact that I feel threatened, because if I want to exercise my freedom of expression (not necessarily with cartoons) - I don't want to fear for my life. And the death threats to cartoonists are just the tip of the iceberg, for example Christopher Hitchens received many death threats from both Christians and Muslims (possibly Jews as well).

Doesn't it also strike you that people use freedom of expression to insult people for no reason?

I was talking with a christian a few years ago, and eventually (not sure for what reason) I told him I was an atheist. He was not only extremely offended, but he asked me to leave or he would kick my ***. So who decides what and when to censor? If you can censor me because you're offended by something you don't like, I will be able to censor you for something I don't like. Where does that lead us eventually? With no freedom of speech.

Honor is a word very rarely used in the western world because people have nothing to associate it with, however, Muslims do have what to associate it with and we protect the honor of others and of ourselves.

You're right, honor is used quite a lot in Islamic countries.
Honor killings
Honor marriage
Honor rape

Honor is overrated. Common sense is underrated.

So don't play the victim card when we reply back. If you don't like it when we get angry then leave us alone. Surely that's reasonable and understandable.

We would, but certain Muslims can't leave us alone. Aren't there many Muslims who emigrate for the sole purpose of converting as many people as possible to Islam, and to impose Sharia law on non Islamic countries?
Aren't there many Muslims who have as many children as possible to outnumber other religions and spread Islam across the globe?

So why is it wrong in your view to burn embassies if no laws of the country were violated? Do you see the hypocrisy?

Really? There's no law in any of those countries that you are not allowed to bomb, burn or ravage buildings government buildings?

You know perfectly that those countries are full of extremists or tensions.
So, of course the reaction is more violent. It doesn't surprise me.

The assassination attempts were made in Sweden - a non Islamic, non extremist country, where only a handful of Muslims live.
The Swedish embassy was ravaged in France and a few more western countries.

@Penumbra: Thanks for moving the topic to the debate section.

PS:

I too really hope you can reply because the discussion is now going exactly to where you wanted.

I don't know if I had any direction when I started this topic. I would gladly accept it if I were wrong. Although my opinions are very important to me, I would rather replace them with the truthful ideas of others if mine are false. And this is something you cannot say or do about your religion. But many religious people do a nifty trick here: they say "We misinterpreted the texts. Here's what it actually means" - which is a poor excuse for the imperfect texts of some religious books (the Qu'ran, Bible and Torah come to mind).

 

[Flankerl]

Religious figures have been mocked in the western world for quite some time. If you live here and dont like that its your fault for living here in the first place.

When in Rome...


But of course you are free to rampage through your own countries. Its not my tourism that will be affected.
Also keep buying flags from us and the chinese. Burn them, poop on them... who cares. But buy them!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

First of all - I do not want to start an inflammatory post ...

Spoiler alert: I will probably get slightly more offensive with each post. ...

What disgusting hypocrisy!

Let me say this out in the open from the beginning. I think you are being dishonest ...

... I very much dislike dishonest people.

I fully agree.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I, personally, would take part in an international "Draw Muhammed Day", but would most certainly not do so strictly for the purpose of offending Muslims. I would participate purely as a protest against the unreasonable levels of anger and hatred that drawing Muhammed would cause amongst some members of the Muslim community and as a statement of my belief in freedom of speech.

And, also, to offend Muslims.

 

[839311]

I think some Christians do get offended when Jesus is made fun of. The more devout a person is, the more likely I think they are to get offended. Thats one reason I think that making fun of Jesus isn't too big a deal in the West, because people aren't too devout anymore. Some might still go to church and spend an hour there. But when they come home they watch football for a few hours, then american idol. Christianity is becoming less and less important in the west. Those Christians that are offended at the cartoons and want to say something may not say anything because they don't want their peers to laugh at them and call them fundies.

Muslims are generally more devout, such as with praying five times a day. In their case, it seems the opposite is true, where most people are devout to the point that they would care and would be offended, while those that wouldn't are a minority. In that case, especially under sharia, if the minority were to speak up that drawing muhammad in a negative way isn't a big deal they could be labeled as rebels and bad muslims. I don't know what the punishment under Sharia is for something like that, maybe some of the other members can fill us in? One of the effects of this is that it reinforces and supports a devout, focused religious culture through a heavy emphasis on punishment. Such cultures are far more sensitive to having their most important religious figures ridiculed, and more likely to demand punishment.

Personally, I think it is going too far and is unjustified to demand punishment for foreigners living in western countries under different laws and with different cultures. Most people in the west are desensitized to mocking religions, and freedom of speech is cherished. Trying to stop it is a futile attempt, really. Drawing attention to it might even have the opposite effect of sparking more drawings of muhammad as people become outraged at the attacks on the 'right to insult religion'.

 

[beerisit]

How is Islam the bully if someone initiated the attack? You'd think the bully is the one who extends his arm over to your side.

Are you talking about the people murdered by Muslims in response to a cartoon drawn by an unrelated individual? WOW

 

[LeftishBritInPA]

How is Islam the bully if someone initiated the attack? You'd think the bully is the one who extends his arm over to your side.

Are you talking about the people murdered by Muslims in response to a cartoon drawn by an unrelated individual? WOW

You've just witnessed islamic theocratic hypocrisy first hand. Here's how it goes

• islam says that you are worth less than dirt and don't deserve to be free.
• in response people draw cartoons to celebrate freedom of expression and freedom of conscience
• and islam retaliates by murdering innocent children, beatings, violence, more suppression, bombings, assasination, slitting people's throats, arson, hate-riots, and terrorism

One of my closest friends was nearly killed by hateful muslims because he was going to participate in draw m0hammed day. He was beaten up as he was leaving a bar and dragged 40 miles by a car, shot 13 times, set on fire, then left in a ditch to die. So don't come whining to us and pretending that islam is the "victim". In the conflict between religion and non-religion, it 99.99999% of the time it is the non-believers who are the victims.

 

[Gharib]

At this point, I don't know which is more barking mad, people who are offended by a cartoon drawing or people who place dead, medieval hucksters above their own families.