Why on earth would you think I might not understand? What impression have I give you that you assume something like that? Try me.
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Drug and alcohol addiction
- Thread starter Riders
- Start date
No... Those are fortunate byproducts. But we use sugar and salt in processed foods because that is what processes and preserves them. *Eyeroll*
Colt
Well-Known Member
Alcoholics Anonymous
"To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face."
"To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face."
Chapter 4
We Agnostics
"In the preceding chapters you have learned something of alcoholism. we hope we have made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic. If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted.
If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.
Lack of power, that was our dilemma. we had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?" Open source AA "Big Book"
PureX
Veteran Member
Whether we believe in God or not, that power greater than our own is being expressed through the group dynamic. As together, by helping each other, the individual is able to do what he/she could not do alone. Whatever God is or is not, it's unity that enables a shared, superior strength. Call that power "God" or don't. Whatever makes sense to you. Either way that power is there in the group, and available to those who are willing to surrender themselves to it.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Agreed! I know long time agnostics and atheists sober in AA due to the freedom AA allows for the individual to find and define God as we understand him.
Ok, thanks, I think that can be a risk, if person is giving up alcohol against his will.
It is based on logic and assumption that people are reasonable. Do you have any feeling that is not based on anything? Perhaps people are not reasonable, I just don't believe that.
I think the difference is that cancer is physical matter, depressive ideas are just thoughts.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Oh okay. People who study this for a living don't know what causes it, exactly, but you, who doesn't seem to even know very much about brain chemistry or psychology to begin with, you've got it figured out.
There is no difference. People can't just stop being depressed because they want to, or there would be no depressed people!!
You can't just decide to change your brain chemistry one day and then poof! it's all fixed. Just like how if you have cancer, you can't just decide that you don't want it and it magically disappears.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
It's a risk whether you're giving up alcohol against your will or not. I've seen my dad experience some pretty terrible DTs when he decided to try to stop drinking on his own AND when he just didn't have any alcohol on hand.
Will has little to do with how the body responds to stuff.
Will has very much to do with how we react to those bodily responses... But not whether or not they occur.
BTW, I am asking those who had a bad experience from it. I'm asking you. I'm trying to understand what that is exactly, but you've not answered back.
But to take a look at what you just said here about the "demand that one needs to appeal to a higher power is especially damaging," in what way is that damaging? In my experience with AA, most make it very clear that the "higher power" can be anything, and for most agnostics and atheists, they see the AA group itself as the "higher power".
I take higher power to mean essentially, anything or anyone outside of yourself and your own efforts, which historically has proven unsuccessful in combating the addiction, unaided, and alone. It's doesn't really need to be that much more lofty than that. So it is essentially, "ask for help". That's all it needs to be to get the ball rolling.
I can understand, unlike what you seem to assume, how that there are those, which include myself, who have a certain "allergy" to the notion of God as "He", or some traditional theistic view. And I'll immediately recognize that that language is strewn throughout the literature.
So in that sense that 2nd person deity of Christianity language appears in the AA material. But at the same time, with great purposeful effort it deliberately says "as we understand God". It's not preaching a certain view, but "make it be what you want it to be for yourself that you are comfortable with".
I am able to soften that "he" and more God as a person idea of God by recognizing the period of time in American history when it was written. For the time, it was quite outside traditional religious views, and I'd say it was quite remarkable for the time as the first, real "spiritual but not religious" or SBNR group out there. In fact, that's what I see it as more than anything else. It's a program of mental hygiene that uses the spiritual path of good psychological health in a non-religious way. It's a therapeutic SBNR program, not a "Christian group".
So, what I hear you saying is that it sounds like they are preaching and raming the idea of God down the throat of agnostics and atheists, or even those like me who have a certain allergy to the traditional theistic idea of an antrophomorpic deity. But based upon what they themselves say, and what members themselves say, and the diversity of non-believers, atheists, and agonistics, and non-theists who are part of it say, do you still feel they are demanding you believe in the Christian God?
The only thing I can think of is that you don't care for it seeing itself as a spiritual program? That spirituality is seen as the same thing as 'believing in God" in a traditional theistic way? Can you help me understand your objection better?
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I don't claim people could stop being depressed just because they want so. It needs that person understands himself and what he thinks is depressing. After that one could start to see things differently and get rid of the depression.
But, I don't think anyone must believe me in this. However, everyone who is depressed, I recommend introspection, learning to know oneself well. That itself doesn't remove depression, but it can show a way how to get rid of it.
I think it is also useful to learn to see things in wider perspective. Often problems appear larger, when one looks them too closely, without seeing anything else. The reason why I think Christianity, or teachings of Jesus eases depression is that they set things in larger perspective and everything is not about oneself so much and there are greater things.
That all depends upon how Christianity is presented. If it is that God sees you as a worthless menstrual cloth and would sooner throw you into the fire, were it not for Jesus talking him out of it, that can actually cause a great deal of anxiety, fear, and depression. I can offer other examples where religious views can also do damage to one's well being. You are aware there are support groups for helping people recover from religious trauma, aren't you?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
People who are depressed typically engage in a ton of introspection, which is major part of the problem to start with.
How about we leave it up to mental healthcare professionals who actually know what they're talking about? Because I'm sorry to say, you just don't know enough about the subject matter on this.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Following his visit to Akron in February 1938, Frank Amos, John D. Rockefeller, Jr.'s agent, summarized the original Akron A.A. “Program” in seven points. Here are those points, as quoted in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers:
• An alcoholic must realize that he is an alcoholic, incurable from a medical viewpoint, and that he must never drink anything with alcohol in it.
• He must surrender himself absolutely to God, realizing that in himself there is no hope.
• Not only must he want to stop drinking permanently, he must remove from his life other sins such as hatred, adultery, and others which frequently accompany alcoholism. Unless he will do this absolutely, Smith and his associates refuse to work with him.
• He must have devotions every morning—a “quiet time” of prayer and some reading from the Bible and other religious literature. Unless this is faithfully followed, there is grave danger of backsliding
• He must be willing to help other alcoholics get straightened out. This throws up a protective barrier and strengthens his own willpower and convictions.
• It is important, but not vital, that he meet frequently with other reformed alcoholics and form both a social and a religious comradeship.
• Important, but not vital, that he attend some religious service at least once weekly.
• An alcoholic must realize that he is an alcoholic, incurable from a medical viewpoint, and that he must never drink anything with alcohol in it.
• He must surrender himself absolutely to God, realizing that in himself there is no hope.
• Not only must he want to stop drinking permanently, he must remove from his life other sins such as hatred, adultery, and others which frequently accompany alcoholism. Unless he will do this absolutely, Smith and his associates refuse to work with him.
• He must have devotions every morning—a “quiet time” of prayer and some reading from the Bible and other religious literature. Unless this is faithfully followed, there is grave danger of backsliding
• He must be willing to help other alcoholics get straightened out. This throws up a protective barrier and strengthens his own willpower and convictions.
• It is important, but not vital, that he meet frequently with other reformed alcoholics and form both a social and a religious comradeship.
• Important, but not vital, that he attend some religious service at least once weekly.
timothy1027
Technology Advocate! :-)
I've also been in recovery from addiction (since 1996) thanks to 12-Step and SMART Recovery Programs.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Congratulations!I've also been in recovery from addiction (since 1996) thanks to 12-Step and SMART Recovery Programs.
We Never Know
No Slack
A person's can't defeat their demons if they enjoy their company.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
You might find this article by Sadhguru interesting as he talks about the theme of alcohol and drug addiction in a holistic context from a yogic perspective...
isha.sadhguru.org
Become a Buddha
On the occasion of Buddha Pournami, Sadhguru tells us what it means and what it takes to be a Buddha.
isha.sadhguru.org
The law allows for free will, even if it is only service to self. Obviously the service is greater than anything of one culture vs another's, or this religion vs another religion.
Narcissism is still a form of love although not generally considered psychologically health. There is no requirement of service to all as self to enable abusive behavior.