Drug and alcohol addiction

[Ashoka]

And you don't know why you are depressed? What it means to you to be depressed?

Please see post #81, where I already addressed this question.

How exactly being without alcohol kills?

Right where you cut off my quote, I explain how. Please go back and read.

 

[Colt]

How exactly being without alcohol kills?

And you don't know why you are depressed? What it means to you to be depressed?

There seems to be 2 different kinds of depression, one physiological and the other emotional.

Withdrawal from chronic use of alcohol has physical repercussions for the body.

 

[PureX]

I think everyone relates to this subject based on personal experience with ourselves or with addicts in our lives, and we might widen our perspective by looking at the research also. For example, while AA/NA may only be effective for about 10% of those who participate, that 10% seems to be almost fanatical in their defense of the programs, because after all, those programs saved their lives. But for the other 90% of addicts there are other, secular alternatives to addiction recovery, including psychiatric help. Proponents of AA/NA seem to think of it, and the courts think of those programs as a one-size-fits-all solution, and to me the evidence doesn't bear that out.

In my travels in life I have known alcoholics and drug addicts who tried AA/NA and are among the roughly 90% who failed. I have known addicts who participated in secular programs like SOS (Save Our Selves) that use a similar group therapy approach and succeeded, and I've known those who just quit on their own, and one who quit heroin in a psychiatric hospital.

I know one person, out of all the addicts I encountered, who quit using heroin with AA/NA. I was in the music business in the 1990s, so I encountered quite a few addicts, by the way. I'm very familiar with the havoc they wreak on themselves and others. But I'm also aware of dysfunctional dynamics of the AA paradigm. For example, the assumptions that it makes about powerlessness, a "higher power", and "denial" the logic of which makes the Pope an addict, because anyone who denies that they are an addict are "in denial". It's a logical fallacy, but I digress. So while I understand the fanaticism of the 10% for whom it worked, it does lend a cult-like look to the program.

I'm not buying the 10% success rate for 12 step programs. I know a lot of people that went to a few meetings, and then went back to drinking or drugging. But they never actually tried AA. They just visited, but never committed. Also, there are a lot of detractors that seem to have a big resentment against the idea that a person can be powerless over their own thinking and behavior. And yet their very resentment could stand as evidence of it. Not to mention even a cursory look the totally irrational and destructive behavior and reasoning of an addict.

We humans really, really, want to think we are in control of our own destiny and choices. And the idea or suggestion that we are not really so in control riles us up. Because it undercuts a most basic idea we have of ourselves and our security in life. But the fact is that we control far less than we imagine we do. Both internally and circumstantially. Our minds and will just don't have the power that we really, really, want to imagine that they do.

And I will add that to discover this fact, personally, can actually be a great life lesson. Especially in term of forgiveness toward ourselves and others. So I'm also not buying the complaint that AA or other 12 step groups inspire guilt and humiliation. In fact it's just the opposite. It inspires empathy and understanding both internally and toward others. To a degree that I don't generally see among those looking at it from the outside, in.

Addiction is one of those things that is very difficult to understand. And impossible for those who are trapped in it, or those who have not experienced it. Which contributes to a lot of bias and misinformation about how to recover from it.

 

[Windwalker]

AA on the other hand works for only a very few and appears to harm more than it helps.

I'm not sure what harm you are thinking comes from AA? I can see where maybe it doesn't work for some people and they need something different, but harm? What harm for instance are you thinking of?

 

[SkepticThinker]

How would not getting alcohol kill anyone?

In a nutshell: Seizures and delirium tremens.

"Delirium Tremens (DTs)​

Delirium tremens, commonly known as the DTs, is a potentially fatal form of alcohol withdrawal caused by an imbalance of brain chemicals and central nervous system issues resulting from the sudden cessation of drinking. It can lead to life-threatening events, including:

• Grand mal seizure
• Stroke
• Heart attack

While experiencing the DTs, some people die of head injuries due to becoming disoriented and falling. Others experience health complications associated with delirium tremens that lead to death. Fortunately, with appropriate treatment, the death rate drops significantly.

Warning signs of delirium tremens include:

• Shakiness
• Confusion
• Rapid heart rate
• Sweating or shivering
• Restlessness
• Fever
• Hallucinations
• Vomiting

If you notice any signs of delirious tremens, seek medical care immediately.

Seizures and Cardiac Issues​

How does alcohol withdrawal kill? Excessive drinking causes the heart to work harder and weakens it over time. Low electrolyte levels from dehydration can cause cardiac stress when a person stops using alcohol. Individuals may be more vulnerable to deadly cardiac complications such as:

• Convulsions
• Irregular heartbeat
• Seizures

Those with an alcohol use disorder might have pre-existing heart conditions, putting them at greater risk of withdrawal-related cardiovascular complications. Heart issues may include:

• Abnormal heart rate
• High blood pressure
• Cardiovascular disease

Though an addiction treatment facility may not eliminate all alcohol withdrawal symptoms, it can make the process much more comfortable. Detox specialists focus on easing discomfort and attending to any medical issues.

How to Safely Detox From Alcohol​

A detox program can help those who suffer from alcohol addiction by providing medical and psychological support. The first step involves medically stabilizing the individual and addressing any other medical issues that may be present. During this period, a person may also receive medication to ease withdrawal symptoms such as insomnia, fatigue, anxiety, and depression."

Alcohol Withdrawal Symptoms That Can Kill You

Ceasing the consumption of alcohol can drastically improve a person’s life. However, if a person has an alcohol use disorder, quitting cold turkey may

www.promises.com

 

[SkepticThinker]

And I think that is the result of depressing thoughts,

Is that from your extensive studies on the subject or .... ?

and it would improve, if person would get over of the depressing ideas.

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy can be very helpful for people dealing with addiction, which involves changing your thought processes in order to re-wire your brain. Although I wouldn't use the words "get over" their depressing ideas. That's like telling a person with cancer to just "get over it."

 

[SkepticThinker]

How exactly being without alcohol kills?

And you don't know why you are depressed? What it means to you to be depressed?

Yes, you can be unaware of the reasons behind your depression, which is part of the problem. It's not like just being in a bad mood or something.

"What are the symptoms of clinical depression (major depressive disorder)?​

Symptoms of clinical depression can range from mild to severe, but they typically last most of the day, nearly every day, for at least two weeks.

Signs and symptoms include:

• Feeling very sad, empty or hopeless (low mood). Children and adolescents may be irritable rather than sad.
• Loss of interest in things and activities that used to bring joy.
• Increase or decrease in appetite, which may result in weight gain or weight loss.
• Slowed speech, decreased movement and impaired cognitive function (psychomotor agitation).
• Trouble sleeping (insomnia) or sleeping too much (hypersomnia).
• Low energy or fatigue.
• Feeling worthless or excessively guilty.
• Decreased concentration.
• Thoughts of death or suicide."

Clinical Depression (Major Depressive Disorder): Symptoms

Clinical depression (major depressive disorder) causes a persistently low mood and a loss of interest in things that once brought joy for at least two weeks.

my.clevelandclinic.org

 

[Windwalker]

I think everyone relates to this subject based on personal experience with ourselves or with addicts in our lives, and we might widen our perspective by looking at the research also. For example, while AA/NA may only be effective for about 10% of those who participate, that 10% seems to be almost fanatical in their defense of the programs, because after all, those programs saved their lives.

The groups I have of attended personally, I would say that maybe less than 5% of those in those groups are the types of fanatics you describe, not 100% of them. Most of the more seasoned veterans however recognize the group and its program as "suggested guidelines", not the authoritative Holy Word of God.

Some do of course, and I simply see them as those who have had nothing to help having found a lifeline, throw themselves into it lock stock and barrel. So when they find something that offers them 'salvation' from their self-destruction, out of desperation they are going to stick tenaciously to what works for them, and that is as true for anyone finding any program having been in a place of absolutely desperation in their lives and having zero tools in their tool chest to work with.

That's a developmental stage sort of thing, of which some may remain there for the duration, that certain, "personality type" you may have meant earlier of those you have encountered. I've seen those too.

But for the other 90% of addicts there are other, secular alternatives to addiction recovery, including psychiatric help.

I don't think we can say that other programs are necessarily the right fit for the remaining 90%, can we? Of that remaining 90%, how many get any kind of help, and of those what are the percentages of successes in those different styles of groups? I would tend to think it too has its lower 10% success rates, simply due to the nature of the addictive mind itself and its power over our choices.

So while AA may have a low percentage of successes, are we talking a 10% success rate for them, and a true 90% success rate for the others? If that were so, then that is in fact something hugely significant! Are there any groups with a 90% success rate? If so, then they are the solution, it seems.

Proponents of AA/NA seem to think of it, and the courts think of those programs as a one-size-fits-all solution, and to me the evidence doesn't bear that out.

Historically, it was really the only game in town, so that's why the courts pushed DUI offenders and others into those programs.

But as far as a one-size-fits-all solution, I certainly would not agree with that. Sure, some naive novices may like to imagine that, just like any church group out of their naivety may think they have the "one true gospel", but I don't think that defines AA as a whole nor everyone who participates in them.

In my travels in life I have known alcoholics and drug addicts who tried AA/NA and are among the roughly 90% who failed. I have known addicts who participated in secular programs like SOS (Save Our Selves) that use a similar group therapy approach and succeeded, and I've known those who just quit on their own, and one who quit heroin in a psychiatric hospital.

I would completely agree that other programs may be better fits, as there is no really one size fits all solution for anything in life.

But as I asked, statistically do those groups have a better success rate than AA? Do they have a 90% percent success rate, or are then in the single digits themselves as well? Then even so, were they to show higher percentages, such as 30% success rates, what all goes into determining the stats, what variables are there, and so forth?

But I'm also aware of dysfunctional dynamics of the AA paradigm. For example, the assumptions that it makes about powerlessness, a "higher power", and "denial" the logic of which makes the Pope an addict, because anyone who denies that they are an addict are "in denial". It's a logical fallacy, but I digress.

The idea of "powerless" I think is easy to read in negative ways. Obviously anyone who even bothers to step foot into an AA meeting of their own seeking to get better, is excersising their own will power! I mean, that's obvious. But what I believe it really meant is simply that by simply choosing to do things they way we have by our own willpower, to either control or master the addiction, is beyond our abilities alone. That much is obvious to anyone who tries and tries to quit and simply cannot. That means they are powerless over their addiction. And they need help outside of themselves.

That in its essence is what a "higher power" means. Reaching outside ourselves to others for help, be that an AA group, a therapist, or turning your life over to higher principles as embodied in a belief in "God" or some other spiritual agency greater than oneself. That's not too hard for me to understand what is actually behind that language, which bear in mind comes from the 1930's, so I allow for the context.

So while I understand the fanaticism of the 10% for whom it worked, it does lend a cult-like look to the program.

Are you really sure you want to say that 100% of people who have success using the program are fanatics about it?

 

[We Never Know]

What is the right answer to change our problem? Why do we have it? We have all these vivacious religions here, over-friendly Jewish Temples friendly churches, and Mosques, and yet we as Americans can´t find a cure with all our religions here? It would seem that we could cure our problems, but we are in a crisis, the medical field, says our opiate and meth addictions are a national Crisis!

As long as they produce things that are addictive, people will become addicted to it. IMO the addictive outcome is the purpose because it helps sell more of the product.

 

[RestlessSoul]

As long as they produce things that are addictive, people will become addicted to it. IMO the addictive outcome is the purpose because it helps sell more of the product.

One reason why processed foods are packed with sugar and salt. Because these substances are addictive

 

[PureX]

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy can be very helpful for people dealing with addiction, which involves changing your thought processes in order to re-wire your brain.

That is essentially what AA and other 12 step recovery programs do. But for free, and without the "science" part.

I can recall specifically having to practice at replacing negative mental axioms each time they automatically popped into my consciousness by reminding myself that they are false, and that they've been entrenched in my brain by my addiction. Excuses that I used for years for drinking too much and too often. After all, when "life sucks, God has it in for you, and no one else cares", what else could one do? Right? But my sponsor in the program helped me to finally recognize how dark and negative my view of reality had become over the years of drinking, and how warped and enabling of the sickness of addiction it was. And yet just recognizing this did not make it stop. That required persistence on my part, and for a long time. To 'burn new neural pathways in my brain', that would replace the old ones.

My friend Jay used to walk around New York City mumbling to himself every time one of those negative thoughts would habitually pop into his consciousness; "Thank you for sharing that, Jay, now LET IT GO!" Until letting it go became an automatic habitual response. And eventually the negative thoughts just stopped popping into his mind.

And of course it's not just about replacing habitual negative thoughts, it's also about replacing the habitual negative behaviors that result.

But it can take a long time, and be quite exhausting. It's why "working the steps" in a 12 step program is called work. It's also why it's SO helpful to have other recovering people around to keep reminding ourselves and each other what the insanity of addiction looks like when we're in it. And what letting go of if looks like when we're trying to get out. We remind ourselves every time we remind someone else.

Although I wouldn't use the words "get over" their depressing ideas. That's like telling a person with cancer to just "get over it."

The key for me was to understand that it was a false view of existence generated by a diseased heart and mind. And the remedy was to keep reminding myself of this, and to keep looking for positive thoughts and actions to replace it each time it crept into my consciousness.

 

[We Never Know]

One reason why processed foods are packed with sugar and salt. Because these substances are addictive

Yep. It give it more flavor and extends its shelf life too

 

[Windwalker]

That is essentially what AA and other 12 step recovery programs do. But for free, and without the "science" part.

I can recall specifically having to practice at replacing negative mental axioms each time they automatically popped into my consciousness by reminding myself that they are false, and that they've been entrenched in my brain by my addiction. Excuses that I used for years for drinking too much and too often. After all, when "life sucks, God has it in for you, and no one else cares", what else could one do? Right? But my sponsor in the program helped me to finally recognize how dark and negative my view of reality had become over the years of drinking, and how warped and enabling of the sickness of addiction it was. And yet just recognizing this did not make it stop. That required persistence on my part, and for a long time. To 'burn new neural pathways in my brain', that would replace the old ones.

My friend Jay used to walk around New York City mumbling to himself every time one of those negative thoughts would habitually pop into his consciousness; "Thank you for sharing that, Jay, now LET IT GO!" Until letting it go became an automatic habitual response. And eventually the negative thoughts just stopped popping into his mind.

And of course it's not just about replacing habitual negative thoughts, it's also about replacing the habitual negative behaviors that result.

But it can take a long time, and be quite exhausting. It's why "working the steps" in a 12 step program is called work.

The key for me was to understand that it was a false view of existence generated by a diseased heart and mind. And the remedy was to keep reminding myself of this, and to keep looking for positive thoughts to replace it each time it crept into my consciousness.

Exactly all of this. For me, the key to begin the process of reprogramming those neural pathways is to get rid of the effects of substances in the system, such as pot or alcohol, or even caffeine and nicotine, in order to actually be observant of my own mind and choose different thought patterns.

Prior to being substance free, it's like trying to swim in a lake with rocks in your pockets. Your own desire to breathe air while in the lake is being counteracted by the acholol or pot, which you believed was helping you feel 'calmer'. While it may have at that moment, it came at a price of never being able to learn how to swim on your own.

So first clear away the addictions to substances and all the addictive thought processes that swirl around those, such as fear and obsession that you can't do it without it, "I need it!", beliefs anxiety creates for itself to perpetuate the addiction. Then when the mind is clear, then the real work of good mental hygiene begins.

And that is, in essence, what is at the heart of these 12 step programs. Even though they may be laced in earlier, mid 20th century language from non-specialist laity, there is in fact that realization that comes intuitively and through practice of those who happened to discover for themselves how to reprogram their minds, while knowing nothing about the science behind it. They caught the attention of medical professionals who had been unsuccessful in treating alcoholism.

So, yes, it works, by reprogramming the mind. It is as you said, a type of CBT, cognitive behavior therapy. Along with other therapeutic tools such as 'letting go" in dealing with shadow work, introjective shadows, split shadows, projected shadows and the like. It really is all there, in a non-religious, non-specialistic lay person program. Quite remarkable, when you look at it that way.

 

[PureX]

Exactly all of this. For me, the key to begin the process of reprogramming those neural pathways is to get rid of the effects of substances in the system, such as pot or alcohol, or even caffeine and nicotine, in order to actually be observant of my own mind and choose different thought patterns.

Prior to being substance free, it's like trying to swim in a lake with rocks in your pockets. Your own desire to breathe air while in the lake is being counteracted by the acholol or pot, which you believed was helping you feel 'calmer'. While it may have at that moment, it came at a price of never being able to learn how to swim on your own.

So first clear away the addictions to substances and all the addictive thought processes that swirl around those, such as fear and obsession that you can't do it without it, "I need it!", beliefs anxiety creates for itself to perpetuate the addiction. Then when the mind is clear, then the real work of good mental hygiene begins.

And that is, in essence, what is at the heart of these 12 step programs. Even though they may be laced in earlier, mid 20th century language from non-specialists in the medical fields, there is in fact that realization that comes intuitively and through practice of those who happened to discover for themselves how to reprogram their minds, while knowing nothing about the science behind it.

So, yes, it works, by reprogramming the mind. It is as you said, a type of CBT, cognitive behavior therapy. Along with other therapeutic tools such as 'letting go" in dealing with shadow work, introjective shadows, split shadows, projected shadows and the like. It really is all there, in a non-religious, non-specialistic lay person program. Quite remarkable, when you look at it that way.

And it's FREE!

Imagine that! Life-saving health care that costs absolutely nothing!

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

I honestly think the problem is hedonism. People live in a culture where they think whatever makes them feel good is what they should do all the time. This leads to problems with drugs, which offer considerable amount of short-term gain but severe long-term consequences. I take drugs myself, but my prescriptions don't make me feel good. Instead, they prevent me from feeling awful. The kinds of prescriptions I take cannot be used to get high. I think if we avoid hedonistic culture that we've created most people can prevent themselves from becoming addicted to drugs, alcohol or tobacco. If you know how to live at all you should be able to maintain a mood that is consistent throughout your life. I honestly don't even like drugs because I don't like to lose control of the base mood or thought process that I have; I prefer utility over pleasure, so naturally, I've never truly had any problems being addicted to anything. If more people chose utility of the mind over pleasure I think we could see drug addiction go away in a few generations. That, and doctors need to stop over-prescribing.

 

[Windwalker]

And it's FREE!

Imagine that! Life-saving health care that costs absolutely nothing!

That's true. And regards to people calling it a Christian group, in all honesty while it may have those 'overtones', i.e, God referred to as "he" and whatnot, considering the period of time in American history it came out of, for that time it is remarkably non-religious. In fact, I'd say it is probably the largest "Spiritual but not religious" group out there. For the time, an SBNR approach as they specifically, intentionally designed it to be, was remarkably innovative.

Grant it, it does depend where you find your group. If you are in some rural America town, where everyone is Christian anyway, that group will have more of that there. But in larger metropolitan areas, you're going to see a lot of Jewish people, agnostics, atheists, etc. It's really a smorgasbord.

And even then, if they are true to AA principles as defined in their literature, particularly the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, keeping religion and politics out of it is its core value. They are interested in sobriety above all else, and should not ever let religious difference or political differences stand in the way of that. If they aren't doing that, then they are not following the AA way themselves.

So while it's not a one-size-fits-all solution, it certainly does create the widest net possible to be as inclusive as it possible can be. That's built right into their traditions, and is what has allowed them to continue to thrive where all other "religious based" programs have failed. They even cite that very fact about the Washingtonians in their literature about not endorsing any religious or political positions on anything. That's what killed those other groups.

 

[We Never Know]

What is the right answer to change our problem? Why do we have it? We have all these vivacious religions here, over-friendly Jewish Temples friendly churches, and Mosques, and yet we as Americans can´t find a cure with all our religions here? It would seem that we could cure our problems, but we are in a crisis, the medical field, says our opiate and meth addictions are a national Crisis!

Nicotine has been shown to be as addictive or more addictive as drugs. And near equal to alcohol

Nicotine Dependence

Nicotine has been proven to be as addictive as cocaine and heroin and may even be more addictive. Many people who smoke develop nicotine dependence.

www.ucsfhealth.org

Alcohol is more addictive than drugs and maybe a little more addictive than nicotine.

How addictive is alcohol compared to other drugs? - Essentials Recovery


But they both are legal even though together they cost over $500 billion yearly and cause around 500,000 preventable deaths each year.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not sure what harm you are thinking comes from AA? I can see where maybe it doesn't work for some people and they need something different, but harm? What harm for instance are you thinking of?

Ask those that had a bad experience from it. The demand that one needs to appeal to a higher power is especially damaging. But I doubt if you would understand why.

 

[PureX]

That's true. And regards to people calling it a Christian group, in all honesty while it may have those 'overtones', i.e, God referred to as "he" and whatnot, considering the period of time in American history it came out of, for that time it is remarkably non-religious. In fact, I'd say it is probably the largest "Spiritual but not religious" group out there. For the time, an SBNR approach as they specifically, intentionally designed it to be, was remarkably innovative.

The first version of what became Alcoholics Anonymous WAS religious. And they found that it wasn't working because the focus was too much on theology instead of sobriety and recovery. It caused the same factionalism that all religions tend to fall into. It's been 30 years since I looked into all that stuff, so I forget what that first iteration was called. But what AA finally became has been designed by a lot of hard earned lessons. Most of them are recorded in the 12 traditions of AA. Lessons like: complete anonymity, no leaders, no dues or fees, no personal requirements, all groups are autonomous and self-regulating by group consensus, every group is self-supporting and AA does not take any outside contributions. AA has and offers no opinions on politics, religion, or any other outside issues. And always places principals before personalities. The whole point of the existence of AA is the help alcoholics get and stay sober. Nothing else.

Grant it, it does depend where you find your group. If you are in some rural America town, where everyone is Christian anyway, that group will have more of that there. But in larger metropolitan areas, you're going to see a lot of Jewish people, agnostics, atheists, etc. It's really a smorgasbord.

I've seen people removed from meetings because they wanted to preach religious recovery. The passed out drunk was allowed to stay. The preacher had to leave. These people are serious about sobriety. But it is true that meetings are all autonomous, and are run by the people in them. So if they are all agreeable, the meeting might have a more religious tone. Strictly speaking, however, the 12 traditions of AA warn against this sort of thing.

And even then, if they are true to AA principles as defined in their literature, particularly the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, keeping religion and politics out of it is its core value. They are interested in sobriety above all else, and should not ever let religious difference or political differences stand in the way of that. If they aren't doing that, then they are not following the AA way themselves.

Exactly. And alcoholics can be very touchy about politics, religion, authorities, money, you name it. Any excuse to stomp off the bar in a huff is quickly blown up. So they learned the hard way to avoid all that stuff and focus specifically on the task at hand.

So while it's not a one-size-fits-all solution, it certainly does create the widest net possible to be as inclusive as it possible can be. That's built right into their traditions, and is what has allowed them to continue to thrive where all other "religious based" programs have failed. They even cite that very fact about the Washingtonians in their literature about not endorsing any religious or political positions on anything. That's what killed those other groups.

I have occasionally stumbled into a group that has ignored the traditions and gone "rogue" (I call it) and I had to leave. I could taste the negative atmosphere. They weren't about recovery, they were about something else.

 

[The Hammer]

How would not getting alcohol kill anyone?

The DTs are really dangerous.

Delirium Tremens (DTs): Practice Essentials, Pathophysiology, Etiology of Delirium Tremens

Delirium tremens (DTs) is the most severe form of ethanol withdrawal manifested by altered mental status (global confusion) and sympathetic overdrive (autonomic hyperactivity), which can progress to cardiovascular collapse. DTs is a medical emergency with a high mortality rate, making early...

emedicine.medscape.com

But not every alcoholic experiences them.