Spoken like a true BB Thumper. From someone who spent 17 years in the rooms.
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Drug and alcohol addiction
- Thread starter Riders
- Start date
Spoken like a true BB Thumper. From someone who spent 17 years in the rooms.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That is only personal experience for you. I can speak from personal experience of knowing those that have used those programs. You have seen some people get well. I have seen some people get well without it after AA or NA failed them. You only have a fundamentalist belief an confirmation bias, which tends to make people wrong far more often than not.
If it works for you that is great. But you might have gotten "well" without it.
The problem with AA is the same "problem" with Catholic Theology: it's heavily regulated by the guilt and shame of its members. Which is severely detrimental to most person's.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
If you want to keep making the same erroneous claim, have at it, I guess.
PureX
Veteran Member
When I finally reached the point where I desperately wanted to stop drinking, I couldn't get past early afternoon without getting drunk. And I couldn't understand why not. Every day I would promise myself with every fiber of my being that I would not drink that day, and then every day I'd fail. And I couldn't understand why it kept happening even as it was happening. It was as if some mysterious force inside me simply took control of me regardless of what I promised, or what I wanted. And it happened every time. Every time, over and over and over.
So for me, there was not even the remotest possibility that I could have stopped on my own, or by my own will. Because I tried and tried and tried and failed every single time, every single day, for a very long time. And I had no idea why it was happening. Not a clue.
And I've since met a lot of folks in AA who had the same experience as me. They'd lost jobs and homes and families and people that they dearly loved, and as it was all happening they wanted to stop drinking more than anything else in life. And yet they failed, every time. Time after time. Can you imagine what that feels like? To SEE yourself driving your wife and children who you dearly love away from you, and hurting them, and not being able to stop yourself from doing it? That's what addiction is like in real life. It's a kind of unstoppable insanity that owns you. And it slowly destroys you and everything you care about. And there's not a damn thing you can do to stop it. Because no matter what you try, or how hard you try, you fail. Miserably, and humiliatingly. Over and over.
And when you finally see this and feel the full weight of the hopelessness of it (no more BS and denial), hopefully, maybe, that's when you will finally surrender to the truth of it. To what you are. And finally then you become willing to do WHATEVER you're told to do by those who have been where you are, and managed to get out. THEY are your "higher power" because they have what you so desperately want but don't know how to get. They are sober. They have their lives back. And a chance to live again.
So yes, AA might appear somewhat cult-like to those who still have the luxury of self-control. And to those that have never experienced what it's like to have lost all control, it's hard to imagine why anyone would join such a group. But to those in the group, they know it's a matter of life and death. And they also know that self-control isn't an option for them, anymore. So if they want to live, they're going to have to learn how to do it from people that have been in their situation, and have gotten their lives back (why it's called recovery). And that's what AA is all about. Addicts helping each other learn how to get and stay sober, and live again.
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SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Indeed, it is. And even if you manage to break the cycle, it can take up to a year for your brain to "re-set" so to speak, which has a lot to do with the relapse rate being so high, unfortunately.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
It was severely detrimental to my father's psychological well-being. As was the evangelicalism that was pushed on him by his brother. Neither helped, and both ended up increasing his feelings of shame and guilt.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Yep, when one has to personally attack those that fail it tells me that the problem is with the program. Now I may be lucky. I do not seem to have an addictive behavior when it comes to drugs or alcohol. That and a fear of addiction have kept me safe. I did like a drink or two at the end of the day, but when due to my body aging that I noticed a physical problem I cut that behavior off. I still have some wine in the house for cooking, but my housemate told me that it is far past the drinking stage. The same happened with me with smoking. Though that desire lasted longer.
But my housemate use to have both a drinking problem and a meth addiction. She still has a gambling problem. I think that genetics may play a role. Her kids all have had problems to a different extent too.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Or longer. We are currently trying to deal with my housemate's son. If he continues on his current path he will be going back to prison.
Yup. I've got an SIL with a problem we've been trying to help straighten out. It's terrible to watch.
****, sometimes even longer. I can't say for certain my brain ever "reset". It's still easy to get addicted to things. I'm just more cognizant of it.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
That's so sad. I hope it turns out well.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I finally had to file a DV charge against her son. She was trying to help him, but it was just enabling. He finally crossed that line with me. Now my house is peaceful again. Maybe this will force him to get the professional help that he needs.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Do posted speed limits work for everyone? Why not? Because humans have free will to accept or reject suggestions! AA is no different! AA is a voluntary program. Today many more young people come to AA who may not be ready to stop. Court ordered people come, therapist and doctors send people. AA graciously try's to help anyone who comes in! If people don't want to stop its like a posted speed limit! The decision to drink is with the drinker.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Yep. It is bad when you hope that a person gets some prison time because that is the only thing that seems to work.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry you feel that way, and I’m glad you have found your own way to stay sober. I stand by every word I said though.
AA saved my life when I was without hope, and I’ve seen it do the same for hundreds of others, so I get a little defensive when I see it being attacked.
I don't see it as essential either. And I wouldn't say it appeals to a certain personality type per se. I think it really has more to do with other factors, such as what toolsets in life they have had, or have been exposed to, as one example.
It's basically a program of mental hygiene, sort of 'poor man's' therapist. It's group support, and practical tools, such as addressing things like guilt, shame, remorse, resentments, obsessive patterns and whatnot. It's a program that teaches self-honesty, and as a result of that humility. These can of course be found in other types of programs, or just doing general therapeutic work, trauma work, shadow work, etc.
The other fact to bear in mind as well is that addiction is not just one thing with everyone on skidrow or helpless junkies. Addition has different stages of severity. A great book that was recommended to me from my therapist that explains the stages of Addiction as a process is this one: The Addictive Personality: Understanding the Addictive Process and Compulsive Behavior
It applies to all types of addictions; alcohol, drugs, sex, gambling, shopping, hoarding, etc.
So you have those who have more mild addictions, but then it can progress into a more 'can't quit on your own but can still function holding a job, paying bills and stuff stage. To develop into you feel you'll die without it, and you'll die with it desperation when you lose everything rock bottom destroying your health, life, and mind addiction.
Of course. There's many different flavors of it and some can be overtly Christian, and others very neutral about "God" and such, some rather conservative, some rather postmodernist even. It's a complex world. They are not centrally run, via a top down hierarchy. Each group is self-sustaining and self governed as to things like 'prayers', or what have you.
There are plenty of atheists in AA groups, and things like "Higher Power" are understood as the AA group itself, for instance, which is perfectly valid.
A healthy AA group should allow for objections to that, and they should be respectful of that. I know of groups where they used to say the Lord's Prayer at the beginning, but members objected it was too religion specific, so they dropped it. The goal of AA is to help people remain sober, not to preach their religion of choice to them. That's not AA. That's a church group.
Well, yes, but part of the social circle that is helpful to those seeking recovery is a support group of those who they can relate themselves to. It's by hearing others stories about their addictions, and you sharing yours that provides that support. It is literally rewriting your self-narrative for the better every time you say it.
There's a great book I would recommend, written by a Jewish author in AA, incidentally, that I find very insightful as I just touched upon: The Spirituality of Imperfection: Storytelling and the Search for Meaning
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Yup... I had my SIL over "detoxing" for a couple days while trying to convince her to go to treatment.
Ended up having to boot her to the curb. Saying if she could t follow house rules (not drinking here), she could walk her *** home (3 hours south driving).
My wife cannot be under that sort of stress from her sister right now. Much more important **** to worry about.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Some people are just pre-disposed to it, unfortunately. I've always avoided hard drugs and alcohol for the most part, due to fear that I may have inherited my father's genetics. I got his heart condition, so I probably inherited his addiction problem as well. Quitting cigarettes is hard enough for me.
I hope you are thriving and doing well.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Subzone's self-appointed job is critique of anything that involves faith in God, EVEN programs that have helped millions find recovery from horrible addiction and all of it's consequences! Thats just the kind of person he is! You can't change Subzone anymore than AA can fix everyone who has a drinking problem!