Dutch Doctors Call for Circumcision Ban

[Photonic]

Hinduism is the oldest extant religion, going back over 5,000 years in an unbroken line.

Actually, not so fast there. Animism came first.

Also it is still practiced.

 

[internationalist]

The Aztecs were stopped from performing their religious ritual of cutting out the still-beating heart of a live sacrificial victim.

Only in this case, they're not removing a body part; just the foreskin. It's like comparing cutting nails to cutting off the entire finger.

Anyway, what's the religious reason? Is there any benefit from the religious PoV?

 

[D-MITCH777]

Just another example of the wave of xenophobia gripping the Netherlands. First they ban Jewish and Muslim ritual slaughter, now they're going after circumcision.

It's just the same old anti-Semitism and anti-Islamism, this time clothed in the wrappings of "animal rights" and, bizarrely, "human rights."

As if it has not been the sovereign right of parents since the dawn of time to bring up their children in accordance with their religious beliefs. As if somehow, forcing Jews and Muslims to become criminals for exercising their religious beliefs is different and okay if you do it in the name of secular, politically correct motivations, and it doesn't come diectly from a Christian religious authority.

Already there are movements in Europe to ban Muslims from wearing their religious attire. Can bans on Jews wearing kippot (yarmulkes) or other religious garments be far behind?

Anti-Semitism has been part of European culture for over a thousand years. I suppose it was unreasonable to expect that a couple of hundred years of Enlightenment and a major genocide would cure them of that.... And now they're going to extend the privilege of being oppressed to Muslims, too. How considerate of them.

I don't think it's Anti-Semitism or Anti-Islamism, it's just that someone should have a choice whether their genitalia is mutated.

 

[Jainarayan]

Well given that humans differentiated from their hominid ancestors 50k years ago, I'd say check your calculations.

Modern humans appeared about 200,000 years ago. By then they were anatomically indistinguishable from you or me.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'll be upfront and say that I'm cut, and that neither I nor any of my past partners have had any complaints.

 

[Riverwolf]

Actually, not so fast there. Animism came first.

Also it is still practiced.

Animism is not, in itself, a full religion. Hinduism actually does have elements of Animism, such as cow reverence and Lord Ganesha's elephant head.

 

[Jainarayan]

Actually, not so fast there. Animism came first.

Also it is still practiced.

Well, OK if you're going to whine about it!

 

[Bismillah]

Modern humans appeared about 200,000 years ago. By then they were anatomically indistinguishable from you or me.

reaching full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago.[6]

Human - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can't really judge the actions of a species that didn't think like us. Also you didn't mention the fact that circumcision was indeed beneficial once it was adopted. Also the practice isn't confined to just Semitic people, the earliest records of it comes from Ancient Egyptians.

 

[England my lionheart]

I don't think it's Anti-Semitism or Anti-Islamism, it's just that someone should have a choice whether their genitalia is mutated.

Agree,basically thats the point,a Baby has no choice in the matter which IMO is wrong,its not as cruel as Female circumcision which the World Health Organization defines as mutilation but its still mutilation.

 

[Bismillah]

a Baby has no choice in the matter which IMO is wrong

Baby doesn't have a choice on how its fed or educated either. Certain things fall under the jurisdiction of parents correct?

 

[England my lionheart]

Baby doesn't have a choice on how its fed or educated either. Certain things fall under the jurisdiction of parents correct?

Of course some things do fall under the jurisdiction of Parents but eating and and education don't require unnecessary mutilation.

 

[Jainarayan]

reaching full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago.[6]

Human - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can't really judge the actions of a species that didn't think like us. Also you didn't mention the fact that circumcision was indeed beneficial once it was adopted. Also the practice isn't confined to just Semitic people, the earliest records of it comes from Ancient Egyptians.

I didn't say behavioral, I said anatomical. And they were the exact same species as we are. Now, moving along...

The ancient Egyptians were a Semitic people and spoke a Semitic Language. Ancient Egyptian is an ancient sister language to Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, Phoenician and a host of others, including modern Coptic (actually a direct descendant of Ancient Egyptian) descended from Proto-Afroasiatic.

There's some archaeological and linguistic evidence that many Hebrew customs and beliefs were adopted from the Egyptians. At one point the proto-languages were mutually intelligible.

So cutting to the chase (no pun intended), just what are the benefits of ritual circumcision?

 

[Bismillah]

Of course some things do fall under the jurisdiction of Parents but eating and and education don't require unnecessary mutilation.

Well let's start off with the word mutilation? How come it is mutilation but breast implant and plastic surgery isn't? It's a cosmetic alteration, I would think the word mutilation would be something close to a scar or unappealing wound. What I am trying to say is, I am not mutilated!

Secondly, are there any long lasting effects with circumcision? Are there any long lasting effects for food habits and education. For the former I'd say no and the latter yes, wouldn't you? Is it then ethical to give parents this choice over their children?

 

[Bismillah]

I didn't say behavioral, I said anatomical. And they were the exact same species as we are. Now, moving along...

Yes...we are all born with foreskin. That is established, but we are looking at the behavioral act of circumcision so I think that information is quite valid.

The ancient Egyptians were a Semitic people and spoke a Semitic Language. Ancient Egyptian is an ancient sister language to Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, Phoenician and a host of others, including modern Coptic (actually a direct descendant of Ancient Egyptian) descended from Proto-Afroasiatic.

Huh didn't know that.

The most important point however, is that there were legitimate benefits then and now for circumcision (in the developing world in the modern age).

 

[sojourner]

Dutch Doctors Call for Circumcision Ban

That'll curtail your Ringling Brothers...

 

[Magic Man]

I'll be upfront and say that I'm cut, and that neither I nor any of my past partners have had any complaints.

That's cool. I'm in the same boat. That doesn't change the fact that by circumcising your child you're mutilating them against their will.

 

[Jainarayan]

The most important point however, is that there were legitimate benefits then and now for circumcision (in the developing world in the modern age).

The benefits haven't been proven. There is a better chance for a botched snip than there is for other health hazards. Four men in my family: me, my late father, and my two brothers are uncut. No problems. I know of one man who had a medical circumcision at age 26, which was botched, and had to be re-done.

 

[Bismillah]

The benefits haven't been proven. There is a better chance for a botched snip than there is for other health hazards. Four men in my family: me, my late father, and my two brothers are uncut. No problems. I know of one man who had a medical circumcision at age 26, which was botched, and had to be re-done.

Yeah they have the WHO advises circumcision as an effective tool against HIV and high prevalence of STDS in Africa. The difference is that you are talking about circumcision within the context of a developed country, which is still disputed.

 

[England my lionheart]

Well let's start off with the word mutilation? How come it is mutilation but breast implant and plastic surgery isn't? It's a cosmetic alteration, I would think the word mutilation would be something close to a scar or unappealing wound. What I am trying to say is, I am not mutilated!

Mutilation is the word used by the World Health Organization for Female circumcision,Females are generally circumcised without their consent,or even against their will,Baby Boys are circumcised without their consent and i guess it wouldn't be at the top of their Birthday wish list either.

Secondly, are there any long lasting effects with circumcision? Are there any long lasting effects for food habits and education. For the former I'd say no and the latter yes, wouldn't you? Is it then ethical to give parents this choice over their children?

You can re sit Exams and go on a diet,really whats the problem of waiting till the Child gets to adulthood and let them choose.

 

[Magic Man]

Baby doesn't have a choice on how its fed or educated either. Certain things fall under the jurisdiction of parents correct?

Yup, and mutilation for no good reason is not one of those things. Comparing helping your baby survive and learn things to cutting off a piece of their penis is a little much. Yes, parents have to make decisions for their children. No, this isn't a decision they should be making for them.