• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Dutch Doctors Call for Circumcision Ban

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Well let's start off with the word mutilation? How come it is mutilation but breast implant and plastic surgery isn't?

Who says they're not?

It's a cosmetic alteration, I would think the word mutilation would be something close to a scar or unappealing wound. What I am trying to say is, I am not mutilated!

Yes, you are, and so am I. Calling it cosmetic alteration doesn't change what it is. It just makes it sound better so that it's easier to take.

Secondly, are there any long lasting effects with circumcision? Are there any long lasting effects for food habits and education. For the former I'd say no and the latter yes, wouldn't you? Is it then ethical to give parents this choice over their children?

Here is the point:

Parents have to make decisions for their children. They have to feed them and do their best to make them into good adults. Cutting off pieces of the children isn't something they have to decide, though, unless it is medically necessary or beneficial.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah they have the WHO advises circumcision as an effective tool against HIV and high prevalence of STDS in Africa. The difference is that you are talking about circumcision within the context of a developed country, which is still disputed.

I'd go with condoms, personally. There's a 99% chance of not contracting HIV or another STD with a condom. I'd place my money on the condom over the slice 'n dice and barebacking. But hey, if nip/tuck is your thing, far be it from me to stop you. I just think it's barbaric and unnecessary.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Mutilation is the word used by the World Health Organization for Female circumcision,Females are generally circumcised without their consent,or even against their will,Baby Boys are circumcised without their consent and i guess it wouldn't be at the top of their Birthday wish list either.
So why is plastic surgery not mutilation?
an act of physical injury that degrades the appearance or function of any living body, usually without causing death.
Mutilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The appearance is subjective the function is debated. Not sure about FGM, but I am pretty sure it is different in consequences than male circumcision.
You can re sit Exams and go on a diet,really whats the problem of waiting till the Child gets to adulthood and let them choose.
Sometimes, sometimes these things have long-term effects. The point is that parents choose many things for their children that have far more important effects on their child's life. Letting them wait is something I am happy my parents didn't do.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Yes, parents have to make decisions for their children. No, this isn't a decision they should be making for them.
If there are no long-term consequences why not? It can be seen, as Levite certainly thinks, as part of a cultural identity. Parents regularly make and are given the authority to make much more serious decisions for their children.
Yes, you are, and so am I. Calling it cosmetic alteration doesn't change what it is. It just makes it sound better so that it's easier to take.
Well as I said to EML

"an act of physical injury that degrades the appearance or function of any living body, usually without causing death."

Mutilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The appearance is subjective the function is debated. Not sure about FGM, but I am pretty sure it is different in consequences than male circumcision.
Cutting off pieces of the children isn't something they have to decide
Even if it is a part of their identity? Parents, for example, decide on limiting their children's dietary or educational opportunities for whatever reason.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
So why is plastic surgery not mutilation? Mutilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plastic/cosmetic surgery like Breast Implants is generally carried out with the recipients permission and money,cosmetic surgery is also carried out on people with facial injuries or disfigurements to remedy them.

The appearance is subjective the function is debated. Not sure about FGM, but I am pretty sure it is different in consequences than male circumcision. [/color]Sometimes, sometimes these things have long-term effects. The point is that parents choose many things for their children that have far more important effects on their child's life. Letting them wait is something I am happy my parents didn't do.

I'm glad for you,i wonder though how many young Men would choose to do it when they reached 18.
 

Gemini

Member
My parents didn't circumcize me because they didn't like how my older brother suffered. I kinda wish they had. Not gonna get it done now that i'm aware enough to comprehend the horror of sharp objects near my johnson. Luckily, the foreskin doesn't really go over the head, and hard it can pass for circumcized. It's kind of a hybrid.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
As long as they don't totally ban it, and will still do it for the few rare medical conditions that benefit from it, circumcision should only be performed when a person reaches the age of consent. It is a form of body modification, and should be regulated as such.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the idea of cutting off parts of your child. I'm assuming the Netherlands doesn't allow parents to beat their kids or scar their faces. Banning circumcisions is no different. It's also not a Jewish or Muslim thing. It's done by many Christians and non-Christians, too.

Of course it's different. Circumcision, by nearly all reputable medical testimony, has negligible negative effects on sensation and function of the penis, and if anything may have some minor positive effects in prevention of fungal and bacterial infections of the penis, disease transmission, and reduction in penile cancer. There is little reliable evidence that circumcision, if properly done, is any more painful than getting injections, or any number of other medical tests and procedures we all regularly have done to our children.

It is no more invasive than standard operations on infants to remove webbing between fingers or toes, or unsightly moles and birthmarks, or other simple procedures of the sort, provided it is properly done. And the percentage of circumcisions in the United States and Europe that are reported to be botched is vanishingly miniscule.

I have worked with many doctors and mohalim (trained ritual circumcisers) in fighting attempts to slur or criminalize circumcision; we spoke to many hundreds of men, and doctors of both genders (including ranking members of the AMA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Urologists, and members of the World Health Organization), and with the exception of a tiny fringe of radicals (none of whom were members of the above organizations, and most of whom were found on the internet), we never encountered men who regretted being circumcised, men who complained of lack of sexual sensation or gratification, or doctors who gave evidence that circumcision, if properly done, was unduly risky or harmful. And what is more, even of the tiny fringe of naysayers, the majority were neither Jewish nor Muslim.

The simple fact is that if one does not wish to have one's son circumcised, no one will force one to do so. There is noplace on earth that I know of where circumcision is compulsory and enforced-- even in Israel, even in Muslim countries (for non-Muslim residents, at least, and possibly there isn't enforcement for Muslims, either, although I don't know for certain if that is true in all Muslim countries).

And circumcision itself is a procedure which is, at worst, harmless. And so since there is little, if any, real objection to the practice of circumcision in the Jewish and Muslim communities, who are the only communities doing this for reasons of spirituality and religious tradition rather than medical or aesthetic purposes, there is no reason that circumcision should be universally banned, without exception for religious reasons, except as a form of legalized discrimination against the religious communities who do practice circumcision as a matter of ritual law, designed to force Jews and Muslims to leave the jurisdiction, or to apostasize and assimilate.

It is ridiculous to suppose that religious traditions which have been maintained for over three thousand years should be banned by external enforcement, simply because a few non-Jews-- who are not even required to circumcize their children if they don't want to-- are a little uncomfortable about it. Clearly such arguments are red herrings or straw men, since the actions in question are entirely contrary to the modern Western spirit of religious freedom and toleration.

I don't think it's Anti-Semitism or Anti-Islamism, it's just that someone should have a choice whether their genitalia is mutated.
Of course some things do fall under the jurisdiction of Parents but eating and and education don't require unnecessary mutilation.

"Mutilation" is a term subject to debate. Practically speaking, circumcision, if done properly, does not affect the proper functioning of the penis, and its effects on sensation are negligible. Brit Milah, which means "The Covenant of Circumcision," is the most ancient and fundamental rite of Jewish identity. It could not possibly be more integral to Jewish identity, and is a key symbolic reminder for Jewish boys day in and day out that they are part of the Covenant of Abraham, just as their fathers were, and just as their sons will be. We don't do it for aesthetic reasons or for medical reasons: we do it because it has incredibly deep spiritual significance, and is a core part of Jewish practice. Jewish Law mandates that this must be done at eight days of age. Jewish men who are uncircumcised (except for medical reasons) are unable to fully participate in Jewish society.

And pretty much the entirety of the Jewish men I have spoken with have expressed relief that their circumcision was done when they were too young to remember it, and easily and quickly recovered from it-- and that they didn't have to suffer through the much more painful and uncomfortable procedure of adult circumcision.

The key here is that the overwhelming majority of Jews and Muslims are not complaining about circumcision-- they wish to keep doing it. It is non-Jews and non-Muslims who are complaining. So, fine, if they want to ban circumcision for other reasons, do it. I might consider it a stupid invasion into the rights of parents to make medical decisions for their children, but that's the business of governments, and I would keep silent about it. But include exceptions for religious purposes in the ban. Otherwise all it is is a bunch of non-Jews telling me and mine that we have no right to observe Judaism as we believe we are commanded by God to do. And, I expect, more or less the same would go for Muslims. And you can cloak that in whatever kind of "right to choose" language you like, but it still just boils down to xenophobia, anti-Semitism, and anti-Islamism, the same as when European Christian princes and kings tried to ban circumcision in the middle ages. And not to get that is plain naive.

Levite: Do you think this ban perhaps coincides with a tendency to mitigate religion's role in European society?

Yeah, I think this has a lot to do with the extreme secularization of Europe, and the increasing discomfort that Europeans show for religions that demand actions and behaviors other than mere abstract philosophies of benevolence.
 
Last edited:

Spirited

Bring about world peace
So can a parent decide to give a baby a tattoo then?

Absolutely, but there is little to no representation of any religious groups who practice that in developed countries. I don't think that's a very good comparison.
 

Panda

42?
Premium Member
The key here is that the overwhelming majority of Jews and Muslims are not complaining about circumcision-- they wish to keep doing it. It is non-Jews and non-Muslims who are complaining. So, fine, if they want to ban circumcision for other reasons, do it. I might consider it a stupid invasion into the rights of parents to make medical decisions for their children, but that's the business of governments, and I would keep silent about it. But include exceptions for religious purposes in the ban. Otherwise all it is is a bunch of non-Jews telling me and mine that we have no right to observe Judaism as we believe we are commanded by God to do. And, I expect, more or less the same would go for Muslims. And you can cloak that in whatever kind of "right to choose" language you like, but it still just boils down to xenophobia, anti-Semitism, and anti-Islamism, the same as when European Christian princes and kings tried to ban circumcision in the middle ages. And not to get that is plain naive.

It has nothing to do with religion that's a load of rubbish. Why should this form of cosmetic surgery be allowed on a child but not other types?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Just another example of the wave of xenophobia gripping the Netherlands. First they ban Jewish and Muslim ritual slaughter, now they're going after circumcision.

It's just the same old anti-Semitism and anti-Islamism, this time clothed in the wrappings of "animal rights" and, bizarrely, "human rights."

As if it has not been the sovereign right of parents since the dawn of time to bring up their children in accordance with their religious beliefs. As if somehow, forcing Jews and Muslims to become criminals for exercising their religious beliefs is different and okay if you do it in the name of secular, politically correct motivations, and it doesn't come diectly from a Christian religious authority.
Is there any other type of cosmetic surgery that western society considers appropriate for an infant with no medical problems?

Is there any other type of cosmetic surgery where western society considers it acceptable for a religious officiant to perform it, rather than a doctor?

I think circumcision is problematic, because either approach creates issues of inconsistency:

- if it's performed by doctors, then you're really asking these doctors to violate their hippocratic oath.

- if it's performed by mohels, then you're having people without proper medical training doing surgical procedures.

I'll be upfront and say that I'm cut, and that neither I nor any of my past partners have had any complaints.
Similarly upfront, I'm uncut, and neither I nor any of my past partners have had any complaints.

So what did circumcision really get you?

So can a parent decide to give a baby a tattoo then?
I think a direct analogy would be African scarification practices. While they're not typically done on infants, they are done on children, and like circumcision, they have a great deal of cultural and religious significance.

However, if a person tried to have their child scarified in either North America or western Europe, he'd probably be looking at child abuse charges. I have trouble trying to figure out a justification for why circumcision should be treated differently.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I have worked with many doctors and mohalim (trained ritual circumcisers) in fighting attempts to slur or criminalize circumcision; we spoke to many hundreds of men, and doctors of both genders (including ranking members of the AMA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Urologists, and members of the World Health Organization), and with the exception of a tiny fringe of radicals (none of whom were members of the above organizations, and most of whom were found on the internet), we never encountered men who regretted being circumcised, men who complained of lack of sexual sensation or gratification, or doctors who gave evidence that circumcision, if properly done, was unduly risky or harmful.
I take it that your survey didn't include any representatives from the Canadian Pediatric Society:

Recommendation: Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed.
Neonatal Circumcision Revisited

And circumcision itself is a procedure which is, at worst, harmless.
Pain, risk of surgical complications, and risk of infection are all harms.


It is ridiculous to suppose that religious traditions which have been maintained for over three thousand years should be banned by external enforcement, simply because a few non-Jews-- who are not even required to circumcize their children if they don't want to-- are a little uncomfortable about it. Clearly such arguments are red herrings or straw men, since the actions in question are entirely contrary to the modern Western spirit of religious freedom and toleration.
Does this apply to other traditions as well? Should members of African tribes who consider scarification to be an innate part of their cultural identity be allowed to continue their practice?

If so, what criteria would you use to tell "legitimate" cultural traditions that are worthy of exemption from ones that aren't?

If not, are you arguing for a special exception only for the procedure that you consider important?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
...may have some minor positive effects in prevention of fungal and bacterial infections of the penis, disease transmission, and reduction in penile cancer.

You pull the foreskin back and wash. Penile cancer is caused by HPV. You use a condom with a partner who has genital herpes. Do I have to think of everything? :rolleyes:
 

Bismillah

Submit
mball said:
First because there are long-term consequences.

Second, because unless it's medically necessary or beneficial, why should a parent be able to cut their kid up?
Well I'd be interested to hear sources of long term negative effects of circumcision. This seems to be key, their absence really leaves the entire rite neutral.

What about the removal of webbing from the neck? Seems like an entirely cosmetic surgery What Is Webbing of the Neck? | eHow.com
Songbird said:
It is. But you have to be 18 and consent to have it done.
True, but what we are discussing is whether circumcision can be called, in all honesty, "mutilation". As I've pointed out earlier, the aesthetics are relative and there is no credible evidence at all that the function of penis is compromised or minimized.

So as I said, while plastic surgery is not and will never be labeled as "mutilation" because of obvious reasons, the same standard would seem to apply to circumcision
D-MITCH said:
Bismillah how do you about Female circumcision?
Don't know much about it other than it causes long-term negative side-effects and as such am opposed to it.
 
Top