Dutch Doctors Call for Circumcision Ban

[9-10ths_Penguin]

His issues, namely were:
1) The build-up of "gunk" that needs to be cleaned out.
2) The fact that he is circumcised, so he wouldn't know how to mentor his uncircumsized son about the mechanics of cleaning said gunk, or peeing, or whatever else it is guys need to impart to their sons.
3) That the kid would be ostracized, especially due to locker room experiences.

All seem pretty legitimate concerns to me. What do you all know about this "gunk"? Does that increase likelihood of infections? What of ostracization and father-son talks?

Like Odion said, cleaning and peeing is no big deal. Also, foreskins vary from person to person. Not all of them completely cover the head of the penis. When they don't, peeing is exactly the same as it would be circumcised.

As for the last concern, I'd say that the kid in the locker room most likely to be ostracized is the one who advertises that he's been looking at everyone else's willies.

 

[Breathe]

When they don't, peeing is exactly the same as it would be circumcised.

Just pointing out (for other's benefit, not directly related to your post) that one can still pull the foreskin back to pee if it covers the head wholly.

 

[Revoltingest]

What it seems to boil down to is that Jews consider brit milah sacred and beneficial, non-Jews consider circumcision offensive and harmful.
Jews consider it a vital part of Jewish culture. Non-Jews don't appear to care about culture, or at least Jewish culture.

But in any case, there has been a consistent refusal in this thread to understand Jewish culture and spirituality, and more often than not, when such minimal understanding of Jewish culture and religion has been demonstrated, it has been dismissively accompanied by outright devaluation and contempt for Jewish culture.....

It has been extremely disappointing to see so much cultural intolerance, and so much xenophobia, cloaked in the garb of human rights language.

A country's values may collide with religions, yet not rise to the level of "xenophobia". Moreover, to dismiss concerns over involuntary cosmetic
surgical alteration as not caring about your culture is no more fair than saying that Jews don't care about children's rights or other people's values.
This issue should concern all. Would you extend the same concession to cultures who engage in female circumcision of babies & children for the
same reason of being "a vital part" of their culture?

 

[SPACKlick]

Just to echo revoltingest's post but take it further, what about amputation of ear lobes? Little toes? Other body parts which no longer perform a significant function and can, rarely, get injured/infected?

In essence circumcision is a medical procedure. Medical procedures performed on people unable to consent should only be done so on medical grounds. There are not suficient medical grounds to support circumcision. Therefore it is child abuse in a heinous form

 

[Revoltingest]

Just to echo revoltingest's post but take it further, what about amputation of ear lobes? Little toes? Other body parts which no longer perform a significant function and can, rarely, get injured/infected?

In essence circumcision is a medical procedure. Medical procedures performed on people unable to consent should only be done so on medical grounds. There are not suficient medical grounds to support circumcision. Therefore it is child abuse in a heinous form

I just wouldn't go so far as to call male circumcision "heinous".
The female counterpart does strike me that way though.

 

[Songbird]

It's not like the penis has suddenly been replaced with a bonsai tree or anything, it's just in its natural state.

I'll never see my bonsai the same way.

 

[Breathe]

I'll never see my bonsai the same way.

Awesome.

 

[Falvlun]

It's not like the penis has suddenly been replaced with a bonsai tree or anything, it's just in its natural state.

Thanks, Odion! I didn't think it was that big of a deal either, but apparently he was pretty freaked out by the thought. I'll show this to him, see if I can get him to come around. :yes:

 

[Father Heathen]

I find it interesting how some of the same people opposing circumcision are the same people who say that adults having sex with prepubescent children is okay as long as its an accepted social norm within that particular culture.
They say circumcision is wrong regardless of cultural viewpoint, but then make an exception for something far more vile and heinous.

 

[Breathe]

Thanks, Odion! I didn't think it was that big of a deal either, but apparently he was pretty freaked out by the thought. I'll show this to him, see if I can get him to come around. :yes:

It's simply because it's something different to what he's used to and he doesn't know. I hope it puts your partner's fears to rest.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thanks, Odion! I didn't think it was that big of a deal either, but apparently he was pretty freaked out by the thought. I'll show this to him, see if I can get him to come around. :yes:

FWIW, I simply can't understand the mindset that would be freaked out by a little "buildup of gunk", but not by the idea of someone going at his infant son's genitals with a scalpel.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Just to echo revoltingest's post but take it further, what about amputation of ear lobes? Little toes? Other body parts which no longer perform a significant function and can, rarely, get injured/infected?

In essence circumcision is a medical procedure. Medical procedures performed on people unable to consent should only be done so on medical grounds. There are not suficient medical grounds to support circumcision. Therefore it is child abuse in a heinous form

In essence, circumcision is a cosmetic medical procedure.

I don't think that you can argue that all elective cosmetic medical procedures are child abuse. I'm thinking about instances when there is little to no medical benefit - like plastic surgery, cleft palate, breast reduction/enlargement - and all of these procedures done by doctors AND the parents are the only ones who can authorize/request these procedures without the child's knowledge or permission. Just like circumcision.

Cut the melodrama. It's as useless as it is unimpressive.

 

[Revoltingest]

In essence, circumcision is a cosmetic medical procedure.
I don't think that you can argue that all elective cosmetic medical procedures are child abuse. I'm thinking about instances when there is little to no medical benefit - like plastic surgery, cleft palate, breast reduction/enlargement - and all of these procedures done by doctors AND the parents are the only ones who can authorize/request these procedures without the child's knowledge or permission. Just like circumcision.
Cut the melodrama. It's as useless as it is unimpressive.

I wouldn't lump a cleft palate in with boob jobs or circumcision. It's far less optional.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleft_palate#Complications

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wouldn't lump a cleft palate in with boob jobs or circumcision. It's far less optional.

And even breast augmentation/reduction usually won't happen until she has breasts... i.e. is past puberty. At that point, most people are capable of at least a basic understanding of the consequences and risks of the procedure and expressing consent.

 

[Revoltingest]

Do penguins ever get beak enlargements or reductions?

 

[SageTree]

A lot of males from the States born in the late 70 and into the early 90s are likely cut unless the parents said no.

I wished my parents had made mine more intentional...

But alas.. I'm just a cut man, with a Hebrew name.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do penguins ever get beak enlargements or reductions?

No, never! It's real, I swear!

(looks around self-consciously)

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I wouldn't lump a cleft palate in with boob jobs or circumcision. It's far less optional.
Cleft lip and palate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I thought about that. I'm willing to let cleft palate go, but not breast surgery. As we know, there's a lot of reasons for underage girls to get breast surgery - some elective, some exclusively medical.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, I thought about that. I'm willing to let cleft palate go, but not breast surgery. As we know, there's a lot of reasons for underage girls to get breast surgery - some elective, some exclusively medical.

Competitive advantage on Toddlers & Tiaras, perchance?

 

[Falvlun]

Yes, I thought about that. I'm willing to let cleft palate go, but not breast surgery. As we know, there's a lot of reasons for underage girls to get breast surgery - some elective, some exclusively medical.

.
Really? I thought, medically, you had to wait until you were done growing-- ie, way past puberty, into your late teens or 20s-- before any doctor would be willing to do cosmetic breast surgery.

And regardless, I doubt any doctor would perform the surgery if it was simply the parents saying-- Those breasts have to go!-- and the girl expressed-- as someone with breasts would be able to-- that she wanted to keep them.

Infants have no such ability for their opinion to be weighed.