Dutch Prime Minister gives a different approach to Corona

[stvdv]

Some news from Holland, how Holland is planning to handle this Corona Virus Control.

This is the Message the Dutch Prime Minister gave us the day before yesterday:

I do not have an easy message for you tonight.

The reality is that the coronavirus is among us and will remain among us for the time being. There is no easy or quick way ou of this very difficult situation. The reality is that in the near future a large part of the Dutch population will be infected with the virus.

That is what the experts are telling us now. And what they also tell us is that, pending a vaccine or medicine, we can slow down the spread of the virus while at the same time building group immunity in a controlled way.

I have to explain that......

(if interested, the rest of his speech (in English) is here: Coronavirus: Full text of Prime Minister Rutte's national address in English )

 

[stvdv]

In short: So, "lock down" of Holland is off the table. They try to minimize 'dying' of 'healthy' people, while 'sick' people better stay in self-quarantine (probably a few month till 1 year or more) till 'building group immunity' (see article in link above) is completed. A totally different approach from what I see many other countries doing; lock down in a quite extreme way.

From economical POV I can understand, a small country like Holland has less buffer, so maybe this is the best economical (and also hospital wise) option for Holland. Time will tell, probably soon, seeing what happened in Italy and China, when even under 'full lock down', still Italy having ca. 350 death daily in the last 7 days.

My first thought was "this seems not such a family friendly way", but ... we have to deal with the decision given by our Prime Minister

 

[stvdv]

In a way this 'group building' idea might be a smart solution. IF it is true, that mostly the elderly and sick people die, then, when they are given the opportunity to self-isolate for a few month to a year or more (as said in above article), they need not die, they just have to face "personal me time" more than they had anticipated. And the economy keeps running, while all the others, who are relatively healthy build this so called 'group immunity' (meaning: all of them getting corona virus, but without dying from it). And after this all Dutch are pretty safe. When 95% being immune (having had it once) they won't infect the sick and elderly; that seems to be the idea. Sounds like a plan, time will tell if it works.

Quite a decision to make. I am glad, I did not need to make such a decision. But, of course, it was backed up by scientists, so I do have a little faith in science, and above all in "self-isolation" as the best solution, when no medicine is available.

 

[stvdv]

Just a few hours ago, our Prime Minister said that option 3) Full Lock Down will be needed if option 1) is not working. I expected him to have to change the plan he told us in the link in the OP, I did not expect it to happen that soon. I think we have to take it 1 day at a time, but we should look at China and Italy and learn, not gamble too much with alternative options, because even with Full Lock Down in Italy, still 350 die on daily basis now.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Bar anyone working in the medical field and having the relevant credentials, no one here is qualified to answer the poll question. I don't see the point in it, nor do I feel I'm qualified to answer it in good conscience.

My only answer right now is, "Whatever the experts such as WHO decide is the wisest approach to follow."

 

[Howard Is]

Bar anyone working in the medical field and having the relevant credentials, no one here is qualified to answer the poll question. I don't see the point in it, nor do I feel I'm qualified to answer it in good conscience.

My only answer right now is, "Whatever the experts such as WHO decide is the wisest approach to follow."

I think this is a steep learning curve even for ‘experts’.
We can only proceed and learn what we learn.

The expectation that ‘they’ know what to do is naive. No one has had enough experience with pandemics of a novel kind to be an expert.

The virus itself isn’t fully understood yet, and it is mutating. The economic and social ramifications are a whole new ball game.

We don’t know diddly.

But we will soon.

 

[Lyndon]

The herd immunity idea has been thouroughly debunked by doctors, it involves ending up with 95% of the population infected, and massive more deaths than lockdown method, the lockdown method has been a roaring success in China and South Korea, out of 1 billion people only 3000 died in China.

 

[Altfish]

I think we all want our Governments to follow expert advice, be open and honest (Some slim chance of that) with the public. When they take decisions that vary from the vast majority of countries to explain why they are doing that and publish the evidence for those decisions.

We are in uncharted territory, mistakes will be made, but if you are open and honest these will be forgiven

 

[ChristineM]

In short: So, "lock down" of Holland is off the table. They try to minimize 'dying' of 'healthy' people, while 'sick' people better stay in self-quarantine (probably a few month till 1 year or more) till 'building group immunity' (see article in link above) is completed. A totally different approach from what I see many other countries doing; lock down in a quite extreme way.

From economical POV I can understand, a small country like Holland has less buffer, so maybe this is the best economical (and also hospital wise) option for Holland. Time will tell, probably soon, seeing what happened in Italy and China, when even under 'full lock down', still Italy having ca. 350 death daily in the last 7 days.

My first thought was "this seems not such a family friendly way", but ... we have to deal with the decision given by our Prime Minister

Kind of like the UK government who seem to be doing nothing worth while other than giving general advice.

 

[stvdv]

The herd immunity idea has been thouroughly debunked by doctors, it involves ending up with 95% of the population infected, and massive more deaths than lockdown method, the lockdown method has been a roaring success in China and South Korea, out of 1 billion people only 3000 died in China.

Thank you, that is what I expect to happen also.
I was glad to read today that our Prime Minister backed down a bit now

 

[stvdv]

I think we all want our Governments to follow expert advice, be open and honest (Some slim chance of that) with the public. When they take decisions that vary from the vast majority of countries to explain why they are doing that and publish the evidence for those decisions.

We are in uncharted territory, mistakes will be made, but if you are open and honest these will be forgiven

Thank you. That is for sure 'uncharted territory, mistakes will be made'.
It's good to keep vigilant, we as public, because sometimes government might make mistakes.
But this being global now and all are having internet, probably those mistakes will be found out soon.

We are lucky, that we have China and Italy with a lot of experience.
Imagine China, who got it first. Must have been tough for them. I think they did great, taking those extreme steps immediately.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I think this is a steep learning curve even for ‘experts’.
We can only proceed and learn what we learn.

The expectation that ‘they’ know what to do is naive. No one has had enough experience with pandemics of a novel kind to be an expert.

The virus itself isn’t fully understood yet, and it is mutating. The economic and social ramifications are a whole new ball game.

We don’t know diddly.

But we will soon.

But as pointed out, if it is so difficult for experts, why would we even contribute?

 

[stvdv]

Kind of like the UK government who seem to be doing nothing worth while other than giving general advice.

View attachment 38032

Thanks, pictures sometimes say more than words. Definitely this picture.
Maybe someone showed it to our Prime Minister, because he backed down on the plan given 2 days ago within 24 hours

And this is proof, that we should not blindly follow government always. I got the same feeling as in your picture, when I read his message

 

[stvdv]

But as pointed out, if it is so difficult for experts, why would we even contribute?

Always good to think for yourself. If you have knowledge, you are less likely to make mistake, and more likely to follow the right steps.
For example, for most people 'self-isolation' is very difficult. But when having knowledge about the consequences it is better do-able.
By contributing, meaning thinking yourself you gain more insight then when blind following like sheep.

 

[Lyndon]

My advice is to seriously consider self quarantine immediately if you can afford it, and don't work in a critical job, all the much more seriously consider it if you are in a higher risk group, even lockdown involves trips to the market around presumably infected people, so if you are at high risk and can possibly do so, get a close friend or relative that's not at such high risk to deliver the supplies to your doorstep, as my siblings have been doing for me. If you can't quarantine, cross your fingers and hope for the best, but at least have a two week supply of food and toiletries in case you do get sick and have to stay home as the hospitals are full. This is not a pretty picture, the economy is in a shambles and its just going to get worse, IMHO. The sooner we go into lockdown, the sooner this crisis is over like it almost already is in China.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Always good to think for yourself. If you have knowledge, you are less likely to make mistake, and more likely to follow the right steps.
For example, for most people 'self-isolation' is very difficult. But when having knowledge about the consequences it is better do-able.
By contributing, meaning thinking yourself you gain more insight then when blind following like sheep.

The trouble is, it is more complicated than this (your poll), otherwise we wouldn't have the best universities all probably scrabbling to understand the current situation, the courses of action, and the likely consequences of this mix. If one could afford it, self-isolation would be the best for oneself but life is not that simple for most.

 

[ChristineM]

Thanks, pictures sometimes say more than words. Definitely this picture.
Maybe someone showed it to our Prime Minister, because he backed down on the plan given 2 days ago within 24 hours

And this is proof, that we should not blindly follow government always. I got the same feeling as in your picture, when I read his message

I don't think boris will back down, i think he sees this as getting rid of the burden of elderly and homeless. A great saving on pension and welfare payments.

 

[Howard Is]

But as pointed out, if it is so difficult for experts, why would we even contribute?

Because we are trying to understand. Because we may learn something from someone.
Mainly because we just can’t help it.
The screen is screaming ‘Megadeath !’
Hard to ignore.

 

[stvdv]

My advice is to seriously consider self quarantine immediately if you can afford it, and don't work in a critical job, all the much more seriously consider it if you are in a higher risk group, even lockdown involves trips to the market around presumably infected people, so if you are at high risk and can possibly do so, get a close friend or relative that's not at such high risk to deliver the supplies to your doorstep, as my siblings have been doing for me. If you can't quarantine, cross your fingers and hope for the best, but at least have a two week supply of food and toiletries in case you do get sick and have to stay home as the hospitals are full. This is not a pretty picture, the economy is in a shambles and its just going to get worse, IMHO. The sooner we go into lockdown, the sooner this crisis is over like it almost already is in China.

Thank you for your advice.
Last week I have been doing some extra shopping, a few kg of rice and wheat flour and potato flour and tomato paste. So, I easily can stay inside for maybe 2 month now. Which might be the smartest thing to do in my situation (almost 60 years old, with quite a few physical challenges)

 

[Regiomontanus]

In a way this 'group building' idea might be a smart solution. IF it is true, that mostly the elderly and sick people die, then, when they are given the opportunity to self-isolate for a few month to a year or more (as said in above article), they need not die, they just have to face "personal me time" more than they had anticipated. And the economy keeps running, while all the others, who are relatively healthy build this so called 'group immunity' (meaning: all of them getting corona virus, but without dying from it). And after this all Dutch are pretty safe. When 95% being immune (having had it once) they won't infect the sick and elderly; that seems to be the idea. Sounds like a plan, time will tell if it works.

Quite a decision to make. I am glad, I did not need to make such a decision. But, of course, it was backed up by scientists, so I do have a little faith in science, and above all in "self-isolation" as the best solution, when no medicine is available.

Yes, IF. We do not know enough about this virus to make any sweeping policies on 'herd immunity'. It is even possible one could relapse; a nurse who had ebola became sick again after doctors thought she had recovered.