Dutch Prime Minister gives a different approach to Corona

[Augustus]

i think he sees this as getting rid of the burden of elderly

Trying to wipe out your voter base would be a somewhat unorthodox political move...

 

[icehorse]

The herd immunity idea has been thouroughly debunked by doctors, it involves ending up with 95% of the population infected, and massive more deaths than lockdown method, the lockdown method has been a roaring success in China and South Korea, out of 1 billion people only 3000 died in China.

This could wander into anti-vaxxer territory. AFAIK - the math on epidemics and herd immunity is quite complex and it's inaccurate, perhaps dangerously inaccurate to claim it's been "debunked".

 

[Revoltingest]

A wise fellow once said to me “When you are caught in a wildfire, there is no point looking for the match”.

A wise fellow once said....
Better to have pec**r tracks on one's zipper, than zipper tracks on one's pec**r.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

This could wander into anti-vaxxer territory. AFAIK - the math on epidemics and herd immunity is quite complex and it's inaccurate, perhaps dangerously inaccurate to claim it's been "debunked".

Herd immunity in the context of coronavirus is not talking about vaccination, since there isn't one. It's talking about deliberately letting your herd get sick all at once and allowing the weakest ones to die, under the assumption that the strong ones will be immune thereafter.

 

[stvdv]

thouroughly wash yourself and don't touch the supplies again for three days, maybe a week if they're plastic

I thought about buying a hair dryer to kill the virus. I read that WHO says that the virus gets killed at 56 degrees Celsius.
So my mother was smart after all, telling me to steam with boiling water when I had my bronchitis.

Of course we can't be 100% sure if this website is correct, but seems quite legit to me
WHO | First data on stability and resistance of SARS coronavirus compiled by members of WHO laboratory network

Virus survival in cell-culture supernatant

• Only minimal reduction in virus concentration after 21 days at 4°C and -80°C.
• Reduction in virus concentration by one log only at stable room temperature for 2 days. This would indicate that the virus is more stable than the known human coronaviruses under these conditions.
• Heat at 56°C kills the SARS coronavirus at around 10000 units per 15 min (quick reduction).

 

[stvdv]

Herd immunity in the context of coronavirus is not talking about vaccination, since there isn't one. It's talking about deliberately letting your herd get sick all at once and allowing the weakest ones to die, under the assumption that the strong ones will be immune thereafter.

What you describe is not what was said in the article: So a little bit more precise would be in the case of our Prime Minister:
* Slowly (not all at once) let all the 'healthy ones' get the virus, as to not over burden the hospitals in case needed
* In the mean time, just a few month, tell the weak ones to take a sabbatical, winter sleep or whatever they want to do "in their house self isolated"
* Assuming the strong ones who got it once (and survived), don't get it again and don't give it to the weak ones, they hope not all get killed

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I heard a news type say that calling it the "Chinese virus" is racist.
"Chinese" is not a race.
And "Chinese" is the adjective for the country where it started.
Anti-Trumpers will say anything to defend the commies, & attack Trump, eh.

Why are we only using this naming convention now?
It makes about as much sense as calling h1n1 the American virus or hoof and mouth the UK virus.

"The American virus killed 575,400 people" does not sound prejudicial to you?

 

[Revoltingest]

Why are we only using this naming convention now?

"We" aren't...Trump is.
His reason was the the Chinese gov accused the US Army of planting the virus there.
It's a way of reinforcing the real origin of the virus, & fighting the fiction..

It makes about as much sense as calling h1n1 the American virus.....
"The American virus killed 575,400 people" does not sound prejudicial to you?

Has anyone in our government claimed that
the Chinese army planted this virus here?

 

[stvdv]

The 2nd option in the poll...
"Let virus run unchecked (option 2 in article)"
....is the worst.
The infections would peak rapidly. This would overload
the health care system far more than keeping the rate down.
It would maximize the death total.

Always good to have a real bad option, then the others look not too bad
I think that's why our Prime Minister added that option; because it's really a stupid option for a smart guy
And I remember, that I was happy when getting multiple choice at exams, and having those easy stupid options to rule out quickly
So, probably he just added this option, to make others happy to be able to rule out 1, and our PM happy that we came to the conclusion that his option is the best

 

[ADigitalArtist]

What you describe is not what was said in the article: So a little bit more precise would be in the case of our Prime Minister:
* Slowly (not all at once) let all the 'healthy ones' get the virus, as to not over burden the hospitals in case needed
* In the mean time, just a few month, tell the weak ones to take a sabbatical, winter sleep or whatever they want to do "in their house self isolated"
* Assuming the strong ones who got it once (and survived), don't get it again and don't give it to the weak ones, they hope not all get killed

I was talking about herd immunity as in actual herds. They let them get sick all at once to prevent relapse if the immunity window is small, and they don't spare the unhealthy ones. Because, again, getting a virus once doesn't make you immune forever in the vast majority of viral outcomes, and if there is a relapse you'll just have to start from scratch again.

In context of corona, thus was backed off from because of similar reasons: we don't know what the immunity window looks like, we don't know how quickly new strains can arise in a large viral case load, we've seen people who appear to get better then get sick again and we don't know if it's from relapse or a new strain. And most importantly, a vaccine is a much better option in all herd immunity discussions but we don't know how long it will take.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

"We" aren't...Trump is.
His reason was the the Chinese gov accused the US Army of planting the virus there.
It's a way of reinforcing the real origin of the virus, & fighting the fiction..

Has anyone in our government claimed that
the Chinese army planted this virus here?

Actually yes, there was a halt on chinese food products during the last two animal transmission outbreaks because we incorrectly worried it was coming from Chinese sources. (We even made a movie about it with the source point in Hong Kong.)
But it doesn't matter because tit-for-tat is juvenile, it isnt doing anything but stirring up prejudice against Chinese, both abroad and right here.

 

[Lyndon]

Herd immunity in the context of coronavirus is not talking about vaccination, since there isn't one. It's talking about deliberately letting your herd get sick all at once and allowing the weakest ones to die, under the assumption that the strong ones will be immune thereafter.

This is exactly what I said has been debunked and I stand by that

 

[Lyndon]

I thought about buying a hair dryer to kill the virus. I read that WHO says that the virus gets killed at 56 degrees Celsius.
So my mother was smart after all, telling me to steam with boiling water when I had my bronchitis.

Of course we can't be 100% sure if this website is correct, but seems quite legit to me
WHO | First data on stability and resistance of SARS coronavirus compiled by members of WHO laboratory network

56' is enough to scald you and leave second degree burns, just saying.

 

[ChristineM]

Trying to wipe out your voter base would be a somewhat unorthodox political move...

The conservative voter base are right across the spectrum, losing a few thousand aging people who probably wouldn't be around to vote next time is a great saving on then governments purse.

And losing the homeless, yup, same result

 

[Lyndon]

"We" aren't...Trump is.
His reason was the the Chinese gov accused the US Army of planting the virus there.
It's a way of reinforcing the real origin of the virus, & fighting the fiction..

Has anyone in our government claimed that
the Chinese army planted this virus here?

I wouldn't put anything past Trump, he may have started the virus in China to take over, cancel elections and become God emperor, nothing would surprise me from him.

 

[stvdv]

Herd immunity in the context of coronavirus is not talking about vaccination, since there isn't one. It's talking about deliberately letting your herd get sick all at once and allowing the weakest ones to die, under the assumption that the strong ones will be immune thereafter.

What you describe is not what was said in the article: So a little bit more precise would be in the case of our Prime Minister:
* Slowly (not all at once) let all the 'healthy ones' get the virus, as to not over burden the hospitals in case needed
* In the mean time, just a few month, tell the weak ones to take a sabbatical, winter sleep or whatever they want to do "in their house self isolated"
* Assuming the strong ones who got it once (and survived), don't get it again and don't give it to the weak ones, they hope not all get killed

I was talking about herd immunity as in actual herds. They let them get sick all at once to prevent relapse if the immunity window is small, and they don't spare the unhealthy ones. Because, again, getting a virus once doesn't make you immune forever in the vast majority of viral outcomes, and if there is a relapse you'll just have to start from scratch again.

In context of corona, thus was backed off from because of similar reasons: we don't know what the immunity window looks like, we don't know how quickly new strains can arise in a large viral case load, we've seen people who appear to get better then get sick again and we don't know if it's from relapse or a new strain. And most importantly, a vaccine is a much better option in all herd immunity discussions but we don't know how long it will take.

Herd immunity in the context of coronavirus

Because you said this, I thought you were talking about herd immunity as related to coronavirus, so related to this article I shared about our PM.
Hence my reply, because people could read it, that our Prime Minister said "allowing the weakest ones to die", and this is not what he said
That would be quite a cruel thing to say for a Prime Minister.

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually yes, there was a halt on chinese food products during the last two animal transmission outbreaks because we incorrectly worried it was coming from Chinese sources. (We even made a movie about it with the source point in Hong Kong.)
But it doesn't matter because tit-for-tat is juvenile, it isnt doing anything but stirring up prejudice against Chinese, both abroad and right here.

Well, I never said that I approve of his new term.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wouldn't put anything past Trump, he may have started the virus in China to take over, cancel elections and become God emperor, nothing would surprise me from him.

I cannot imagine what it's like to live in continual fear that the sky is falling.

 

[Augustus]

The conservative voter base are right across the spectrum,

Under 60s probably around 30% vote Tory
Over 60s it's not far off 65%

losing a few thousand aging people who probably wouldn't be around to vote next time is a great saving on then governments purse.

If it's just a few thousand people who would die soon anyway, it isn't going to save a great deal of cash. It would be a tiny fraction of a percent of social security spending, let alone government spending. The cost to the economy of the virus spreading further would be far greater than any savings.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Because you said this, I thought you were talking about herd immunity as related to coronavirus, so related to this article I shared about our PM.
Hence my reply, because people could read it, that our Prime Minister said "allowing the weakest ones to die", and this is not what he said
That would be quite a cruel thing to say for a Prime Minister.

Sorry I should have worded that better. I'm typing on my phone so thoughts get jumbled while trying to get it down here.
In agriculture there are two kinds of herd immunity strategies. One is vaccination, the other is allowing the pathogen to burn through herds and take the damage. The herd immunity in response to the coronavirus is an example of the latter type. In practice it's more dangerous for the weak and it will lead to hospital spikes as even healthy people can need treatment for covid.