E Vs C. Really now???

[metis]

Obviously, lt is always true, before and after his time.

So God didn't care about any of them who existed previously? Seems that a loving God would care, which is what I tend to believe.

 

[robmil]

Have you read the story of the Flood?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Have you read the story of the Flood?

I have. Do you understand that it never happened?

 

[robmil]

That's why it is a story. I was trying to point out that he does not like the unrighteous.
The fact that Jesus said something in the New Testament does not mean no others had said exactly the same thing prior. Freedom from desire is a tenet of older religions, too.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's why it is a story. I was trying to point out that he does not like the unrighteous.
The fact that Jesus said something in the New Testament does not mean no others had said exactly the same thing prior. Freedom from desire is a tenet of older religions, too.

It depends upon what you mean by desire. And one needs to understand that times of the Old and New Testaments. At that time women were not much more than property. The Bible is not even consistent. The Song of Solomon is a whole book that has endless praise for female sexuality. The idea that sex was bad is mostly a late addition by Paul.

 

[exchemist]

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Quote mining is a pastime for fools and knaves. Provide the context of that sentence and we can discuss its intended meaning. Actually don’t bother. I’ve changed my mind. I doubt it would be a productive discussion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Quote mining is a pastime for fools and knaves. Provide the context of that sentence and we can discuss its intended meaning. Actually don’t bother. I’ve changed my mind. I doubt it would be a productive discussion.

I am constantly amazed at Christians that seem to think that quote mining the Bible is okay. Of course one can get it to say almost anything one wants of one does that. A big part of the problem are Christian apologists. And it goes back to at least the author of Matthew who abused the Old Testament quite often that way. It is where they get the false idea of hundreds of prophecies for Jesus in the OT. Almost all of those are just terrible quote mines.

 

[Nakosis]

Evolution is about MORTALS.

Creationism is about IMMORTALS.

The two aren't comparable.

For Gods' sake!

So what brought this revelation on?

 

[exchemist]

I am constantly amazed at Christians that seem to think that quote mining the Bible is okay. Of course one can get it to say almost anything one wants of one does that. A big part of the problem are Christian apologists. And it goes back to at least the author of Matthew who abused the Old Testament quite often that way. It is where they get the false idea of hundreds of prophecies for Jesus in the OT. Almost all of those are just terrible quote mines.

True. It's a stupid game quite a lot of Evangeicals like to play. A lot of it is just showing off how well they know their bible. But as you say it can be used to claim a "biblical" basis for almost anything, if you find the right phrase and take it entirely out of its context.

 

[Subduction Zone]

True. It's a stupid game quite a lot of Evangeicals like to play. A lot of it is just showing off how well they know their bible. But as you say it can be used to claim a "biblical" basis for almost anything, if you find the right phrase and take it entirely out of its context.

When creationists use quote mining they like to use obscure sources so that people cannot check their claims and refute them. So they rarely give all of the information needed. I can do the same. "There is no God" The Bible. With at least twelve places one can find that quote mine and some of the very obscure I can do so and be very very sure that a Christian will not be able to find the specific verse that I am abusing.

 

[exchemist]

When creationists use quote mining they like to use obscure sources so that people cannot check their claims and refute them. So they rarely give all of the information needed. I can do the same. "There is no God" The Bible. With at least twelve places one can find that quote mine and some of the very obscure I can do so and be very very sure that a Christian will not be able to find the specific verse that I am abusing.

My mother used to tell a story about an Evangelical wedding in which people sent wedding greetings in the form of just bible references, the assumption being that everyone would know the verses being referred to. However someone screwed up and sent: "John 4:18" ..........which reads: "Thou hast had five husbands, and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband."

 

[metis]

Have you read the story of the Flood?

LOL! I taught theology, so your sarcasm is noted.

 

[gnostic]

Evolution is about MORTALS.

Creationism is about IMMORTALS.

The two aren't comparable.

For Gods' sake!

evolution and creationism are indeed not comparable, but your choice of comparisons equating them by using “mortals” & “immortals“, are weak, and not really relevant.

 

[syo]

So what brought this revelation on?

What do you mean?

 

[Nakosis]

What do you mean?

I'd suspect something happened which cause you be aware of this difference.

 

[Astrophile]

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

'When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.' I Corinthians 13:11.

 

[syo]

I'd suspect something happened which cause you be aware of this difference.

Ah, yes! Gods create and we choose. We don't create.

 

[gnostic]

Have you read the story of the Flood?

That's why it is a story. I was trying to point out that he does not like the unrighteous.
The fact that Jesus said something in the New Testament does not mean no others had said exactly the same thing prior. Freedom from desire is a tenet of older religions, too.

I have.

And in the last 20 years, I had learned that the Genesis Flood was one of the stories borrowed & adapted from the Babylonian Flood myths, during the times Jews were living in exile in Babylon, after the sacking of Jerusalem in 587 or 586 BCE.

Prior to the Exile, there were no creation or flood of the Hebrews existing in any older texts written on any stone or clay tablets, no parchments, no papyri scrolls, no inscriptions on home or palace or tomb walls, no inscriptions on objects (eg stone stelae), etc.

And there were certainly no such texts in the Late Bronze Age, like the 15th century BCE, the supposed times of Moses & Joshua - one leader of the “exodus”, the other leader of invasion in Canaan - where Jewish and Christian traditions have attributed the first 5 books to Moses as author. There are no evidence that Moses ever lived in this time period, and there are no “original” Genesis, Exodus, etc, in the 15th century BCE.

If the Israelites didn’t learned of Babylonian creation and flood stories from Neo-Assyrian empire (eg the Library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh, where copies of Epic of Gilgamesh and Enûma Eliš were discovered) in the 7th century BCE, then they would most definitely have learned from the Neo-Babylonian empire in the 6th century BCE.

But both epics, that of Gilgamesh & Enûma Eliš, are older than Neo-Assyrian copies. They were found in many places of different times throughout the 2nd millennium BCE, not just in Babylonia during two earlier dynasties in Babylon (Amorite dynasty & Kassite dynasty), but also outside of Babylonia, like the Epic of Gilgamesh were found in Susa (capital of Elam), in Hattusa (the Hittite capital), in Ugarit in northwest Syria, in Amarna in Egypt and even in the Canaanite Megiddo, all tablets or tablet fragments dated to the 15th century BCE. Even older tablets of Gilgamesh dated to Amorite dynasty, around the 18th century BCE.

But all creation and flood stories actually predated the Babylonians and Assyrians, to the mid & late 3rd millennium BCE, have their sources from the Sumerians.

So yes, I know of Genesis flood myth, but I also know that the Jewish story was neither original, nor unique. Before Noah, the Mesopotamian hero had 3 names for different periods: Ziusudra in Sumerian (eg Eridu Genesis), Atrahasis in Old Babylonian (eg Epic of Atrahasis) and Utnapishtim in Middle Babylonian & Neo-Babylonian.

While the fragmented tablet of the Eridu Genesis survived with many missing pieces, we know enough that Ziusudra built a vessel large enough for his family, but what is most interesting that the smell of sacrifices drew the gods to Ziusudra, just like that of Genesis 8, where the sweet smell of burnt offerings drew God to Noah. In the Epic of Atrahasis, there are some parallels in this Epic (as well as in Gilgamesh story of Utnapishtim), particularly about Atrahasis (and Utnapishtim) releasing birds in 3 different days, to find land, just like in Genesis 8.

The birds and sacrifices events showed that the Genesis version was never original.

 

[blü 2]

I have.

And in the last 20 years, I had learned that the Genesis Flood was one of the stories borrowed & adapted from the Babylonian Flood myths, during the times Jews were living in exile in Babylon, after the sacking of Jerusalem in 587 or 586 BCE.

Prior to the Exile, there were no creation or flood of the Hebrews existing in any older texts written on any stone or clay tablets, no parchments, no papyri scrolls, no inscriptions on home or palace or tomb walls, no inscriptions on objects (eg stone stelae), etc.

And there were certainly no such texts in the Late Bronze Age, like the 15th century BCE, the supposed times of Moses & Joshua - one leader of the “exodus”, the other leader of invasion in Canaan - where Jewish and Christian traditions have attributed the first 5 books to Moses as author. There are no evidence that Moses ever lived in this time period, and there are no “original” Genesis, Exodus, etc, in the 15th century BCE.

If the Israelites didn’t learned of Babylonian creation and flood stories from Neo-Assyrian empire (eg the Library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh, where copies of Epic of Gilgamesh and Enûma Eliš were discovered) in the 7th century BCE, then they would most definitely have learned from the Neo-Babylonian empire in the 6th century BCE.

But both epics, that of Gilgamesh & Enûma Eliš, are older than Neo-Assyrian copies. They were found in many places of different times throughout the 2nd millennium BCE, not just in Babylonia during two earlier dynasties in Babylon (Amorite dynasty & Kassite dynasty), but also outside of Babylonia, like the Epic of Gilgamesh were found in Susa (capital of Elam), in Hattusa (the Hittite capital), in Ugarit in northwest Syria, in Amarna in Egypt and even in the Canaanite Megiddo, all tablets or tablet fragments dated to the 15th century BCE. Even older tablets of Gilgamesh dated to Amorite dynasty, around the 18th century BCE.

But all creation and flood stories actually predated the Babylonians and Assyrians, to the mid & late 3rd millennium BCE, have their sources from the Sumerians.

So yes, I know of Genesis flood myth, but I also know that the Jewish story was neither original, nor unique. Before Noah, the Mesopotamian hero had 3 names for different periods: Ziusudra in Sumerian (eg Eridu Genesis), Atrahasis in Old Babylonian (eg Epic of Atrahasis) and Utnapishtim in Middle Babylonian & Neo-Babylonian.

While the fragmented tablet of the Eridu Genesis survived with many missing pieces, we know enough that Ziusudra built a vessel large enough for his family, but what is most interesting that the smell of sacrifices drew the gods to Ziusudra, just like that of Genesis 8, where the sweet smell of burnt offerings drew God to Noah. In the Epic of Atrahasis, there are some parallels in this Epic (as well as in Gilgamesh story of Utnapishtim), particularly about Atrahasis (and Utnapishtim) releasing birds in 3 different days, to find land, just like in Genesis 8.

The birds and sacrifices events showed that the Genesis version was never original.

Yes. In Andrew George's The Epic of Gilgamesh at Tablet XI, Uta-Napishti (the Noah character) narrates how when the vessel settled on the mountain after the flood, he burnt incense to the gods ─

'The gods did smell the savour,​

the gods did smell the savour sweet,​

the gods gathered like flies to the man making sacrifice.​

​

Then at once Belet-ili arrived​

she lifted the flies of lapis lazuli that Anu had made for their courtship:​

"O gods, let these great beads in this necklace of mine​

make me remember these days, and never forget them!​

So the biblical God's rainbow is the descendant of the Sumerian goddess Belet-ili's lovely necklace of beads. (She's the Mother-goddess. She with Ea's help, you'll recall, created mankind.)

 

[Little Nipper]

Yes. In Andrew George's The Epic of Gilgamesh at Tablet XI, Uta-Napishti (the Noah character) narrates how when the vessel settled on the mountain after the flood, he burnt incense to the gods ─

'The gods did smell the savour,​

the gods did smell the savour sweet,​

the gods gathered like flies to the man making sacrifice.​

​

Then at once Belet-ili arrived​

she lifted the flies of lapis lazuli that Anu had made for their courtship:​

"O gods, let these great beads in this necklace of mine​

make me remember these days, and never forget them!​

So the biblical God's rainbow is the descendant of the Sumerian goddess Belet-ili's lovely necklace of beads. (She's the Mother-goddess. She with Ea's help, you'll recall, created mankind.)

Genesis 9:13-15

13 I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.​