each year many unborn babies are deliberately aborted.

[Faithofchristian]

At the stage of abortion the fetus is not a baby. Calling is thus is appeal to emotion.

That will not work, that fetus is unborn baby,
People are so gullible to believe in such
Non-sense.
It has been proven over and over again, that the fetus is a baby, But still people are just to gullible to believe otherwise.

But then I don't need to be proven, what that fetus is, it's quite obvious seeing a woman that is pregnant that she carrying a human being.

It's in the process of developing in it's mother's womb, but it doesn't take away that it is human being.

Show just one human fetus while it's in it's mother's womb, that it's not a human being.

 

[ChristineM]

That will not work, that fetus is unborn baby,
I see your gullible to believe in such
Non-sense.
It has been proven over and over again, that the fetus is a baby, But still people are just to gullible to believe otherwise.

It's in the process of developing in it's mother's womb, but it doesn't take away that it is human being.

Show just one human fetus after it has fully developed in it's mother's womb and born, that it's not a human being.

Tell that to the law of the land and dictionary definitions.

Who proved it?? Citations please

 

[Nakosis]

a personal choice or a question of morality?

Both really...

Not everyone has the same moral views. Personally I'm against abortion, but I don't think the government should get involved telling people what to do.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Tell that to the law of the land and dictionary definitions.

Who proved it?? Citations please

So who exactly is the law of the land, that your pointing to ?

As for Dictionary definition ----
Fetus | Definition of Fetus by Merriam ...
Merriam-Webster › dictionary › fetus
Definition of fetus. : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth — compare embryo 1b. See fetus defined for English-language learners.

Here's another at 6 weeks old.




At 6 weeks pregnant, baby's heart will be beating around twice the rate of yours. At 6 weeks, there are many changes in embryo development. Overall, the embryo is less than half an inch in length. ... the heart, dividing into four chambers and pumping blood.Mar 16, 2018

 

[Subduction Zone]

Tell that to the law of the land and dictionary definitions.

Who proved it?? Citations please

The old "It's true because I say so" argument.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So who exactly is the law of the land, that your pointing to ?

As for Dictionary definition ----
Fetus | Definition of Fetus by Merriam ...
Merriam-Webster › dictionary › fetus
Definition of fetus. : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth — compare embryo 1b. See fetus defined for English-language learners.

Here's another at 6 weeks old.



View attachment 23692
At 6 weeks pregnant, baby's heart will be beating around twice the rate of yours. At 6 weeks, there are many changes in embryo development. Overall, the embryo is less than half an inch in length. ... the heart, dividing into four chambers and pumping blood.Mar 16, 2018

Do you realize that even your poor dictionary source does not support you? A "developing human" is not yet a human.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Both really...

Not everyone has the same moral views. Personally I'm against abortion, but I don't think the government should get involved telling people what to do.

Yes the government should stay completely out of it.

 

[ChristineM]

So who exactly is the law of the land, that your pointing to ?

As for Dictionary definition ----
Fetus | Definition of Fetus by Merriam ...
Merriam-Webster › dictionary › fetus
Definition of fetus. : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth — compare embryo 1b. See fetus defined for English-language learners.

Here's another at 6 weeks old.



View attachment 23692
At 6 weeks pregnant, baby's heart will be beating around twice the rate of yours. At 6 weeks, there are many changes in embryo development. Overall, the embryo is less than half an inch in length. ... the heart, dividing into four chambers and pumping blood.Mar 16, 2018

The is the law, you are free to change it... Oh wait a moment,!!!

And not one mention of the word baby... Interesting eh?

 

[Sleeppy]

We also have secular, reality based, science to use. Including the formulation of moral principles and ethical codes.
According to science, individual humans are formed when a pair of gametes merge. It's the same with all other such organisms, from elephants to shrimp. Which humans matter, that is "are accorded personhood", is a really subjective opinion. Where I live, it didn't used to include black people. Things have improved morally in the last century or so and now black people are accorded personhood. I hope that in the near future unborn people will also be accorded more value than a tumor or a parasitic infestation.

But I am not holding my breath. Altogether too many people benefit from the anti-feticide political position to actually take concrete, evidence based, steps to reduce abortion.
Tom

You're both oversimplifying it. But, I'm only going to oversimplify it slightly less.

The placenta really bridges the gap. Between the 5th and 6th week of pregnancy, the heart begins beating, and oxygen begins to transfer, via the developing placenta.


-- Side note: all things are living. Energy, or ability, is life. Hence, Mark 12:27. Distinction is a matter of perspective.

The questions you should be asking aren't being asked. You shouldn't be asking whether there is life, but whether the soul has presented itself. Your other questions, and answers, proceed from that point.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The is the law, you are free to change it... Oh wait a moment,!!!

And not one mention of the word baby... Interesting eh?

I just gave you the Dictionary definition of the fetus that you ask for and according to the dictionary a fetus is a baby.

But now your trying to contradict what you ask for. You said nothing whether the fetus is a baby or not.

But seeing the dictionary disprove's you, that a fetus is a baby. That you ask for the dictionary definition.

 

[ChristineM]

I just gave you the Dictionary definition of the fetus that you ask for and according to the dictionary a fetus is a baby.

But now your trying to contradict what you ask for. You said nothing whether the fetus is a baby or not.

But seeing the dictionary disprove's you, that a fetus is a baby. That you ask for the dictionary definition.

Nope .not one mention of baby in the definition you provided.. and you know it

What i said was "Tell that to the law of the land and dictionary definitions."

I did not ask for dictionary definition.

What i did ask for wad citations to justify your claims that "It has been proven over and over again, that the fetus is a baby, But still people are just to gullible to believe otherwise."

And i am still waiting

Edit. And please do not misrepresent what i say or ask for. I dont like it and it does your credibility or argument no goot whatsoever

 

[Loviatar]

Personally, the simplest explanation for when a human life begins seems like when all the basic components of what goes into a life come together, which would be conception.

Before then, you need something extra for an organism that could become a human life in any sense would form. After then, it's just another developmental stage of an organism that's already formed.

Obviously not all people share that definition, but I'm not really sympathetic to that argument honestly. Not all people share my belief that post-birth abortions shouldn't be allowed either; Peter Singer doesn't and he has some arguments that in a purely utilitarian sense would be valid for it, yet I believe the law should prevent killing newborn infants. Fundamentally, government is where we hash out different value-based conceptions like these on a societal level - since this is mostly a question of when life begins, I think people should advocate for what they believe in, rather than adopting an "I believe X, you believe Y, so it shouldn't be legislated on" stance.

I'm more sympathetic to arguments that the protection of human life by the strictest definition (i.e. the one I'm using) has to be balanced, which seems totally valid to me. If the life of the mother is in danger for example, she should be able to abort. Really, that's injecting some utilitarian calculus into an otherwise hard "life should be protected" stance in areas where it gets messy: the mother has more feeling than the unborn child.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're both oversimplifying it. But, I'm only going to oversimplify it slightly less.

The placenta really bridges the gap. Between the 5th and 6th week of pregnancy, the heart begins beating, and oxygen begins to transfer, via the developing placenta.


-- Side note: all things are living. Energy, or ability, is life. Hence, Mark 12:27. Distinction is a matter of perspective.

The questions you should be asking aren't being asked. You shouldn't be asking whether there is life, but whether the soul has presented itself. Your other questions, and answers, proceed from that point.

Hebrew mythology had the soul enter with the "breath of life". That may be why killing a fetus was a property crime, fixed by paying a fine, and why at least a priest could perform a chemical abortion in the Old Testament.

 

[columbus]

You shouldn't be asking whether there is life, but whether the soul has presented itself.

When there is an objective understanding of what a soul is, then we can discuss that objectively. Until then, it's not possible to do that.

I have my own personal beliefs about soul. They expand a good bit beyond human beings and human identity. However, those beliefs are utterly subjective. So I can't make an objective statement based on my meaning of the word. So I don't.

I am pretty sure that you and I both believe in soul. But I am also pretty sure that we disagree about what it means. So I wouldn't try to discuss a topic like feticide using the word soul. The word isn't just ambiguous, it's a serious obstacle to reaching understanding.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Hebrew mythology had the soul enter with the "breath of life". That may be why killing a fetus was a property crime, fixed by paying a fine, and why at least a priest could perform a chemical abortion in the Old Testament.

The primitive understanding of reality the Bible authors had is why I don't take them at all seriously as moral authorities.
Tom

 

[Sleeppy]

Hebrew mythology had the soul enter with the "breath of life". That may be why killing a fetus was a property crime, fixed by paying a fine, and why at least a priest could perform a chemical abortion in the Old Testament.

Not always a property crime. According to Rabbi Ishmael, for example, in the Talmud, Sanhedrin 57b, Genesis 9:6 reads "...within man."

Which is interesting, in light of Exodus 21:22, and the fact that the fetus develops it's own heart, lungs, and brain, between the 5th and 6th weeks, where oxygen transferal also begins.

 

[Sleeppy]

When there is an objective understanding of what a soul is, then we can discuss that objectively. Until then, it's not possible to do that.

I have my own personal beliefs about soul. They expand a good bit beyond human beings and human identity. However, those beliefs are utterly subjective. So I can't make an objective statement based on my meaning of the word. So I don't.

I am pretty sure that you and I both believe in soul. But I am also pretty sure that we disagree about what it means. So I wouldn't try to discuss a topic like feticide using the word soul. The word isn't just ambiguous, it's a serious obstacle to reaching understanding.
Tom

We don't need an objective understanding of it, only an understanding that it exists.

 

[columbus]

I would say that intent makes all of the difference in the world.

Nonsense.
Reality is what doesn't change regardless of what anybody thinks.

Back when people thought that the sun revolved around the earth they were wrong.
Back when people thought that black people were intellectually inferior to white people they were wrong.

It doesn't matter what you believe, human beings begin at conception and end at death. That's the reality. Reality won't change to suit your preferred social agenda.
Tom
Eta.~ Sometimes talking to pro-feticide people is like talking to creationists. They'll just change the meanings of words to match their agenda. Like when creationists change the meaning of the word day to include "millions of years"~

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nonsense.
Reality is what doesn't change regardless of what anybody thinks.

Back when people thought that the sun revolved around the earth they were wrong.
Back when people thought that black people were intellectually inferior to white people they were wrong.

It doesn't matter what you believe, human beings begin at conception and end at death. That's the reality. Reality won't change to suit your preferred social agenda.
Tom
Eta.~ Sometimes talking to pro-feticide people is like talking to creationists. They'll just change the meanings of words to match their agenda. Like when creationists change the meaning of the word day to include "millions of years"~

It makes all the difference in the world as you used your argument. I answered in kind.

The problem with abortion laws is in knowing when a fetus is a "human being". I am sure that there are some that think even a fertilized egg is a human, but there is a rather high percentage of those that do not even attach. They are not even included in figures on miscarriages. That alone is thought to be 50% and a woman would not even have known that they were "pregnant":

Conception: How It Works

Women that undergo artificial fertilization are terribly disappointed, but none that I know of rue the death of their "babies" when fertilized eggs do not attach. An opposition to the "Morning After Pill" is simply a superstitious opposition.

And since no one can say when a fetus becomes human, sorry but I won't even consider an embryo as counting as such, it becomes a matter of conscious and not one of law for the pregnant women to decide. If you have evidence then you can change the law. But until then I am keeping out of the argument of telling a woman what she cannot do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And since no one can say when a fetus becomes human,

The Bible tries to do just that: 30 days after birth.