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each year many unborn babies are deliberately aborted.
- Thread starter natasha levchenko
- Start date
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. Reason I asked was because usually, anti-abortionists are Christian, or theists, at least. Since theists generally think that everything is under a god's control...that would make a spontaneous abortion his decision, would it not? You may not be a theist, so that is a reasonable answer if that is so.
I am not a theist.
But I get annoyed by the stupid assertions and "gotcha" BS employed in the discussion.
I see it as a simple combination of basic science and secular morality. But I can never get anybody to talk about those things, they're always doing what you did.
Tom
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Cool with that. I was responding to what i saw as a theist position.
Want to talk about a nontheist, science and secular humanist based, opinion about why elective feticide is a detriment to the human situation?
Almost nobody will. Maybe you're special.
Tom
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Certainly not special. But sure......What's your take on the subject? I haven't dwelled on it much.
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
a zygote is not a baby
Ok, great!
Most people won't.
A) Individual human beings begin with conception. Same as every other placental mammal.
B) Every human being is uniquely valuable. "Inherent worth and dignity" is the phrase the UU's use to describe the reason that human rights matter.
But I don't care what term you use. By my, secular humanist, lights every single human being has basic worth. We cannot save the life of every one. That's beyond our capability. But we can work towards ending people feeling entitled to choose death for other people.
So I am ProLife. I oppose people choosing death for other people, especially the weak and vulnerable. That includes war, capital punishment, environmental degradation, and a bunch of other ways.
Abortion is kinda low on my list, actually. I get a bit irrationally emotional about it, sometimes, because I would have died in a dumpster behind a hospital if RoeVWade were the law in 1958. But my mom would have died in 1952 were surgical abortion not available.
I have nuanced views about this. But almost everyone on the internet gets all "gotcha" about it. "Who is responsible for the natural abortions? ". "Why does a baby deserve a gestation period?"
I get frustrated.
Tom
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Yeah...I been defenseless in the face of my own stupidity with no way to escape from my own unstable mind and all that bullsh*t! Hang in there. I just hope I f*cking die soon! Life is full of double-standards from liberals and annoyances!!! I'm sick of the selective outrage!
They blame victims for not being veiled rather than the migrants from countries where it's okay to rape an "unveiled whore". I have to live with this fascism and political correctness robbing countless millions of liberties, while the liberals remain silent and refuse to speak the truth as fascism and bigotry triumphs in our world. I would rather die than live with such stupidities!
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
I just came accross this post while looking for something else. I cannot at the moment remember If I afforded you a response. Did I leave this conversation hanging? If so, my sincerest apologies.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Wow! Way to go at catching a sep 2017 necro post! I did the same LOL! That's cool that you stay on top of things like that!
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Wow! Holy Sh*t! That's intense!
When my mom was pregnant me, she was finishing med school and in residency, and people were like, "are you gonna keep the baby?"
I honestly at this point wish she would have gotten an abortion and spared me the misery!
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Upon my own birth, my chances were not very good. For most of my life I wished I would have died then. I haven't wished that in awhile, but as I make improvements in one area, I decline in another.I honestly at this point wish she would have gotten an abortion and spared me the misery!
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Awww...C'mon! I love your anti-politically correct posts!
Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I'm interested.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
yeah, I just came across it again. I do a lot of posting sometimes,and sometimes there can be a lot of time between posts. Depends on what else is happening in my life at the time.
So why is elective abortion a detriment to the human situation? And to respond to another of your posts, I think nuance can be important.
TheBannerofHomuraAkemi
Active Member
Forcing your beliefs on a unwilling person is not of God, but of man. If you really want to limit abortion then tackle the poverty in your nation.
Gallowglass
Member
Here's my opinion:
1. There is no guarantee until after the legal cut-off that the zygote or fetus will become human. Many things can go wrong. Fetuses can become any number of problems, including turning into tumors and malforming into masses that are no longer viable as a baby, but are still alive and still sucking nutrients from the would-be mother.
2. Abortion is natural. It occurs in the wild, where animals will choose to abort if they don't like the situation they are in and find it not conducive to raising young.
3. The mother is a human being. She should have the right to decide whether something gets to feed off of her for ten months.
4. At least in the US, when abortion is illegal, domestic abuse, child abuse, child homicide and child trafficking all rise by quite a bit. Our social services are already stretched to insane limits, and all children in foster care will experience, statistically, at least one abusive household. More than half will experience sexual abuse. Most social workers have more cases than they can handle by ten.
5. The suicide rate for children who are into adopted and enter the system, or who are in the system is insanely high.
6. If a child is on life support, it is, and should be, the parents' decision as to whether or not to pull the plug. A fetus is on life support, sustained only by the mother. It is not any more conscious than a child on life support. The decision on what is in the fetus's best interests should then be placed with the parents.
7. Pregnancy puts extreme stress on the mother, and often has lifelong repercussions. Things like vaginal prolapse are considered "normal," and has to be lived with for the rest of the mother's life. The uncommon and rare side effects on the mother can be even worse. I mean, the common ones like hypertension, prolapse, gestational diabetes, hemorrhoids aren't fun, but then there are ones like stroke.
8. Assuming the argument is "Why should you get a choice to kill it, the child doesn't get a choice to live" -- at what age are you going to let that child decide to die?
9. If your argument is Biblical, God explicitly states that the fetus isn't ensouled yet, and that causing a woman to miscarry's penalty is a fine. Killing a cow is rated more severe. Further, in Numbers, God explicitly creates a test for wives suspected of being unfaithful, that if guilty, will cause miscarriage, due to the abortifacient herbs used to purify the floor of the temple that are still used by women today in countries or areas where abortion is hard to access or illegal.
1. There is no guarantee until after the legal cut-off that the zygote or fetus will become human. Many things can go wrong. Fetuses can become any number of problems, including turning into tumors and malforming into masses that are no longer viable as a baby, but are still alive and still sucking nutrients from the would-be mother.
2. Abortion is natural. It occurs in the wild, where animals will choose to abort if they don't like the situation they are in and find it not conducive to raising young.
3. The mother is a human being. She should have the right to decide whether something gets to feed off of her for ten months.
4. At least in the US, when abortion is illegal, domestic abuse, child abuse, child homicide and child trafficking all rise by quite a bit. Our social services are already stretched to insane limits, and all children in foster care will experience, statistically, at least one abusive household. More than half will experience sexual abuse. Most social workers have more cases than they can handle by ten.
5. The suicide rate for children who are into adopted and enter the system, or who are in the system is insanely high.
6. If a child is on life support, it is, and should be, the parents' decision as to whether or not to pull the plug. A fetus is on life support, sustained only by the mother. It is not any more conscious than a child on life support. The decision on what is in the fetus's best interests should then be placed with the parents.
7. Pregnancy puts extreme stress on the mother, and often has lifelong repercussions. Things like vaginal prolapse are considered "normal," and has to be lived with for the rest of the mother's life. The uncommon and rare side effects on the mother can be even worse. I mean, the common ones like hypertension, prolapse, gestational diabetes, hemorrhoids aren't fun, but then there are ones like stroke.
8. Assuming the argument is "Why should you get a choice to kill it, the child doesn't get a choice to live" -- at what age are you going to let that child decide to die?
9. If your argument is Biblical, God explicitly states that the fetus isn't ensouled yet, and that causing a woman to miscarry's penalty is a fine. Killing a cow is rated more severe. Further, in Numbers, God explicitly creates a test for wives suspected of being unfaithful, that if guilty, will cause miscarriage, due to the abortifacient herbs used to purify the floor of the temple that are still used by women today in countries or areas where abortion is hard to access or illegal.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Yeah...I been defenseless in the face of my own stupidity with no way to escape from my own unstable mind and all that bullsh*t! Hang in there. I just hope I f*cking die soon! Life is full of double-standards from liberals and annoyances!!! I'm sick of the selective outrage!
They blame victims for not being veiled rather than the migrants from countries where it's okay to rape an "unveiled whore". I have to live with this fascism and political correctness robbing countless millions of liberties, while the liberals remain silent and refuse to speak the truth as fascism and bigotry triumphs in our world. I would rather die than live with such stupidities!
It is never OK to rape anyone and it just shows someone is in darkness and not light.