Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?

[Thief]

Well I consider myself a gnostic Christian.

No I don't take to original sin but I don't think God made humans to his perfection otherwise we wouldn't need the tree in the first place. To me original sin was a state of becoming enlightened and closer to God via gnosis.

so....getting closer to the mindset of God ......was a sin?

 

[Greatest I am]

To not follow was deadly? Have you read the books of the prophets? Not following the rules is the theme of most of them

That is what I meant. The rules of the tribe and in that day, that included listening to the Torah being read once a year.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

so....getting closer to the mindset of God ......was a sin?

Not to answer for our friend but I think he meant from the Christian POV which is what their dogma calls our fall.

He said he does not take to Original Sin and I read that as his taking the Jewish view of this myth as our elevation.

I hope he confirms this.

Regards
DL

 

[Tumah]

That is what I meant. The rules of the tribe and in that day, that included listening to the Torah being read once a year.

Regards
DL

The books of the prophets are filled with Israelites not following the Law.
And if you are referring to Deut. 31:9-13 I think you mean once in seven years. And it wasn't a commandment that is punishable by death.

 

[viole]

Eden. Original Sin or Original Virtue?


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http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

“Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.”

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http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/original_sin.html

From John Galt's speech, in Atlas Shrugged.

“What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man.

Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives.”


Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Gen 3;22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil;


Do you see Eden as our Original Sin or as our Original Virtue?


Regards

DL

Original sin, for God.

What could be more annihilating to God than letting people acquiring knowledge? He had to stop this, for once you have knowledge, He vanishes.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Greatest I am]

The books of the prophets are filled with Israelites not following the Law.
And if you are referring to Deut. 31:9-13 I think you mean once in seven years. And it wasn't a commandment that is punishable by death.

By deadly I meant that it is hard for anyone to become a black sheep to the tribe. Not deadly in the sense of a do or die although I have not heard of what the penalties were for not hearing the Torah on the right schedule.

I think that the Jews were on the right track for a decent theology before Christianity usurped the Jewish God and his holy books.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Original sin, for God.

What could be more annihilating to God than letting people acquiring knowledge? He had to stop this, for once you have knowledge, He vanishes.

Ciao

- viole

I would not say he vanishes. I would say he becomes more real in the sense spoken of here.

Careful with your interpretation of real.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

We should all seek God, as defined as the best rules and laws to love life by.

If any of us ever finds a miracle working God then the best thing to do is kill him.

That is scripture.

It says not to suffer a witch to live. Supernatural is synonymous to witchcraft.

It is all imaginary and has no real place in our thinking of the best rules and laws to live by.

Regards
DL

 

[Thief]

Original sin, for God.

What could be more annihilating to God than letting people acquiring knowledge? He had to stop this, for once you have knowledge, He vanishes.

Ciao

- viole

I suspect.....

We humans became suspicious

we took a look around ourselves and considered......we are here of our own making?
and the rest of everything around us.....just happened?

I read Genesis in such manner.....God made Man as a species and turned us loose on the earth
the garden event was intervention....to upgrade the situation

staying out of sight helps to preserve freewill

 

[Thief]

Not to answer for our friend but I think he meant from the Christian POV which is what their dogma calls our fall.

He said he does not take to Original Sin and I read that as his taking the Jewish view of this myth as our elevation.

I hope he confirms this.

Regards
DL

yeah....
and I see the garden event as a test......and the first couple passed.
so release into the environment would follow

getting turned loose into this world.....when you had ideal living conditions.....
might seem like a punishment

but it's more an opportunity to make it on your own

 

[idav]

so....getting closer to the mindset of God ......was a sin?

We could consider that god and serpent were both telling the truth, we would become like gods, maybe thats talking treason depending on who you ask. "They" certainly seemed to get peeved.

Not to answer for our friend but I think he meant from the Christian POV which is what their dogma calls our fall.

He said he does not take to Original Sin and I read that as his taking the Jewish view of this myth as our elevation.

I hope he confirms this.

Regards
DL

Yes I meant what christians consider the fall.

 

[Thief]

We could consider that god and serpent were both telling the truth, we would become like gods, maybe thats talking treason depending on who you ask. "They" certainly seemed to get peeved.

YES!
no one in the garden lied

but carefully look at the agenda as each character speaks

you will then see......truth can be used to undo and sabotage

 

[Greatest I am]

yeah....
and I see the garden event as a test......and the first couple passed.
so release into the environment would follow

getting turned loose into this world.....when you had ideal living conditions.....
might seem like a punishment

but it's more an opportunity to make it on your own

For sure. Man does not live by bread alone. We do not take well to being kept slaves. That does not give us our required sense of worth.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

We could consider that god and serpent were both telling the truth, we would become like gods, maybe thats talking treason depending on who you ask. "They" certainly seemed to get peeved.

Yes I meant what christians consider the fall.

Thanks. I am pleased I did not misunderstand.

In this story, the serpent actually gave more of the consequences than God did.
I see that as God lying by omission.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

YES!
no one in the garden lied

but carefully look at the agenda as each character speaks

you will then see......truth can be used to undo and sabotage

The agenda seems to be that God wanted man to remain blind and too stupid to reproduce while the serpent wanted man to gain a moral sense before reproducing.

Regards
DL

 

[OTPEuJill42]

Sort of. I see "the Fall" as the actually being the beginning of an ascent.

Why is it the beginning of an ascent? It means we were cast out of the garden into a world that sucks.

 

[Greatest I am]

Why is it the beginning of an ascent? It means we were cast out of the garden into a world that sucks.

It was that or A & E would have remained as bright as bricks and too dumb to even know they were naked and supposed to reproduce. Right?

Regards
DL

 

[rusra02]

That is the garbage Christian dogma that ignores scriptures.

The following 5 quotes are why I call what God did murder, if he actually needs a blood sacrifice. As you can see, a sacrifice was not required.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As you can see, especially those last two quotes, all are saved without a sacrifice.

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Let me back us up just a tad.
The wicked spirit you speak of was put in Eden by God. Scriptures also say that Eve was deceived by that spirit with God's own power of deception flowing through that spirit. God would have known that Eve could not resist yet still put it there to deceive Eve.

Tell us why God would do that if he did not want Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge?

Regards
DL

You are comparing apples to oranges. A thief or murderer's son would not justly be executed for his father's crime. That is not what happened in Eden. If God had executed Adam immediately, none of us would have existed nor had the opportunity to be saved from the sin Adam passed to us. So I believe there is no injustice on God's part, but rather, kindness we do not deserve in allowing us to live. Further, as 2 Peter 3:9 says, God is patient because he desires that all attain to repentance and thus has patiently given us time for this. But 2 Peter 3:7 assures: "But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people." 1 Timothy 2:4 says;."whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth." The doctrine of universal salvation is not based on the Bible, IMO.

 

[Thief]

The agenda seems to be that God wanted man to remain blind and too stupid to reproduce while the serpent wanted man to gain a moral sense before reproducing.

Regards
DL

I read it like this.....
Man was a self centered animal
dominating all things including his fellowman
take what you can .....give nothing back

the alteration and presence of God was done to change that 'natural' lean
and the test was to make certain Man would have curiosity even if death is the consequence

without that one characteristic.....little consideration would play to life after death

so God said.....eat and you shall die(physically)
and the serpent said you will not(spiritually)

death is still pending at both levels
the most serious difference.....we can see it coming
and consider the afterlife

 

[Greatest I am]

You are comparing apples to oranges. A thief or murderer's son would not justly be executed for his father's crime. That is not what happened in Eden. If God had executed Adam immediately, none of us would have existed nor had the opportunity to be saved from the sin Adam passed to us. So I believe there is no injustice on God's part, but rather, kindness we do not deserve in allowing us to live. Further, as 2 Peter 3:9 says, God is patient because he desires that all attain to repentance and thus has patiently given us time for this. But 2 Peter 3:7 assures: "But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people." 1 Timothy 2:4 says;."whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth." The doctrine of universal salvation is not based on the Bible, IMO.

If you do not see injustice on God's part, your moral sense is not moral at all.

No child is responsible for what his parents do. Yet that immoral situation is what you promote.

You might learn a bit from this Bishop.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I read it like this.....
Man was a self centered animal
dominating all things including his fellowman
take what you can .....give nothing back

the alteration and presence of God was done to change that 'natural' lean
and the test was to make certain Man would have curiosity even if death is the consequence

without that one characteristic.....little consideration would play to life after death

so God said.....eat and you shall die(physically)
and the serpent said you will not(spiritually)

death is still pending at both levels
the most serious difference.....we can see it coming
and consider the afterlife

Self-centred. No.

Man is the most altruistic animal on the planet.

Here is proof.

Regards
DL