Education Distrust

[Quintessence]

Having a strong public education system is essential for a functioning democracy.

There are a lot of problems with the education system in the United States. Enough that I'm not going to get into it all here, but it suffices to say that the decentralized nature of the system in this country coupled with partisan attempts to dismantle public education and privatize it are the main culprits. None of these issues are new - they were present when I was going through the system but it has unfortunately gotten worse rather than better.

See also:

Partisan divides over K-12 education in 8 charts

The public is sharply divided along partisan lines on topics ranging from what should be taught in schools to how much influence parents should have over the curriculum.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[Audie]

There Is Rampant Distrust in Education. Here's How to Fix That (Opinion)

Is it possible to replace a culture of long-simmering distrust? Only if education leaders make some serious changes, writes Katherine Schultz.

www.edweek.org

Why do so many people distrust education, and/or the educated?

This seems more prevalent in the US, but I am sure it occurs elsewhere too.

Like vaccine hesitancy, it just completely escapes me.

Do you trust the education system, or the educated? Why or why not?

Singapore and Hong Kong systems are outstanding

 

[Viker]

I don't trust any of the alternatives that others have for our current education system. It's not absolutely perfect but it is better than those alternatives.

 

[Stevicus]

Not with religion only politically - and that wasn't very effective.

I agree that indoctrination is difficult to overcome, but that is the duty of a good education. And if the education doesn't overcome indoctrination, it has failed.
(And US education has 1. the disadvantage of having to work against indoctrination and 2. isn't very good, independent from the challenges.)

Well, the thing about U.S. education is that it's uneven from district to district and state to state. Not to mention the numerous parochial schools and homeschooling and other alternative forms of education parents might opt for. So, there are some places where one can get a quality education and others...not so much.

Local school boards seem to be battlegrounds as well, and too many adults turn the schools into political football fields for their own pet issues. It's a wonder the kids can learn anything at all.

 

[The Hammer]

In my day, kids who didn't score sufficiently or were not proficient enough to move to the next grade flunked the grade. Now we use euphemisms such a "held back" in such cases, but we rarely even do that so we spare the child's or parents feelings. We just allow them to move onto the next level, at which point too many kids are lost due to lack of preparedness, so we dumb down the curriculum so everyone passes.

Competition has been all but eliminated on schools so no child feels left behind. When I was in school, we had things like spelling bees, but neither of my daughters participated in such an event. When asked why, I was told that kids felt bad when they were eliminated.

These are only a couple of examples. If I felt it would be productive, I could continue.

While I get this. We also want the children to be able to learn, without feeling like they are stupid.

A child who passed everything in grade two but flunked math and spelling, could go on to grade three with remedial classes or tutoring in math/spelling (or whatever area of weakness there was) while simultaneously keeping them on par with their peers imo.

We need to also realize that not all kids have the same learning capacities of others. So some may not ever "get math".

Should they continuously be "held back"?

I get that the no child left behind standardized stuff has dumbest some things down. But I also think that we need to look at ways to lift all boats.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Even if politicking hadn't resulted in some of the worst education in a wealthy nation due to classissm based budget cuts and incurious conspiracy and theocratic thinking, and we had the best education around, mistrust would still be a healthy response. Because that's just how critical thinking works. You know, you've done well as an educator if you teach the kids how to research new information and apply it to previous data, update your conclusions. And be genuinely curious without being ingenuously contrarian because you hold a prior belief.

But creationists and conspiracy theorists are only part of the problem. There's another type of mistrust that is just not talked about a lot.

There's less interest in school because of increasing generational wealth gaps means a lot of gen z and elder gen alpha don't care about school. Why care when the continuously ignored housing and health and climate crisis keeps getting worse. When the apathy of their elders means most of them won't have happy basic needs lives no matter how well they do? Why trust that education is going to do you any good in that situation? The disenfranchisement is not just a problem with people who don't want to learn, but with people who think that there's no point in learning.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I posted that last post on too little sleep so I went back and revised it into hopefully something more poignant.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

While I get this. We also want the children to be able to learn, without feeling like they are stupid.

A child who passed everything in grade two but flunked math and spelling, could go on to grade three with remedial classes or tutoring in math/spelling (or whatever area of weakness there was) while simultaneously keeping them on par with their peers imo.

We need to also realize that not all kids have the same learning capacities of others. So some may not ever "get math".

Should they continuously be "held back"?

I get that the no child left behind standardized stuff has dumbest some things down. But I also think that we need to look at ways to lift all boats.

To add to this the idea that testing well is an indication of future success beyond the classroom is demonstrably untrue. It's not nearly dynamic enough to reflect the real world or even future results in that field. And we have no shortages of noteworthy achievers who did poorly in their respective schools. Testing is a skill and not a particularly useful one because in real life most of our jobs are open book, open calculator, open internet. Better you know where to go to get up-to-date Information rather than how to regurgitate it. Similarly, the better a school understands how to handle different learning styles the better the students will be equipped to individually problem solve.

 

[Unfettered]

There Is Rampant Distrust in Education. Here's How to Fix That (Opinion)

Is it possible to replace a culture of long-simmering distrust? Only if education leaders make some serious changes, writes Katherine Schultz.

www.edweek.org

Why do so many people distrust education, and/or the educated?

This seems more prevalent in the US, but I am sure it occurs elsewhere too.

Like vaccine hesitancy, it just completely escapes me.

Do you trust the education system, or the educated? Why or why not?

Generally speaking, I offer my trust commensurate to the justification I can establish for doing so. In terms of prejudicial distrust (though it really isn't so) I do not trust any system whose foundation is corrupt. Likewise, I do not trust any person who expects or demands my trust on the basis alone of a status or credential of education. How could offering trust without cause, in either case, be considered wise or intelligent or educated?

To wit, I once received a government-issued certification to handle and store certain hazardous materials. The training and testing process was a literal joke. I received the certification on the most superficial of bases. But I was certified. Should anyone have inherently trusted me to properly handle and store the hazardous materials simply because I was "educated," as indicated by the certificate? Good grief, no! But how would a person have known not to trust me had I asserted my certification (my education) as cause for his trust? No one but those who were wise to the ridiculousness of the training could have known that such trust might have been foolish to offer.

In that case, it was clear to me that the purpose for the training and the certification was not to establish or warrant any substantive education, knowledge or proficiency, but to obtain my signature on the certificate under a statement that sealed my culpability for failure to apply the training. All government wanted was compliance and a preemptive admission of guilt. I was, effectively, a certified hazmat idiot.

The state education system is built on a corrupt foundation, so I can't inherently trust it. Beyond that, any other reasons I would offer for not trusting it would be gravy, particularly where those reasons were experientially substantive.

Hesitancy toward any intervention that crosses the barrier of my body and person should not be prejudiced as ignorant. Only a fool would allow such an invasion without having done all the due diligence required to make the decision subject to his sound judgment and clear conscience, as opposed to demanding of them.

 

[Valjean]

As far as vaccination go, distrusting the education system has nothing to do with itimo. I think it’s just those people rely on the immune system that God gave them imo. I just got the updated Covid vax fyi

So why aren't they squawking about all the other vaccines? Do they eschew antibiotics, as well? How about any medical treatment?

 

[Heyo]

I don't trust any of the alternatives that others have for our current education system. It's not absolutely perfect but it is better than those alternatives.

PISA likes to differ.

 

[Heyo]

Well, the thing about U.S. education is that it's uneven from district to district and state to state. Not to mention the numerous parochial schools and homeschooling and other alternative forms of education parents might opt for. So, there are some places where one can get a quality education and others...not so much.

Local school boards seem to be battlegrounds as well, and too many adults turn the schools into political football fields for their own pet issues. It's a wonder the kids can learn anything at all.

Yes, fully agree. Just like with wealth and income distribution, the US also has a very wide range of "education distribution". At least it isn't as bad as with wealth and more than 1% get a decent education.

 

[Secret Chief]

While I get this. We also want the children to be able to learn, without feeling like they are stupid.

A child who passed everything in grade two but flunked math and spelling, could go on to grade three with remedial classes or tutoring in math/spelling (or whatever area of weakness there was) while simultaneously keeping them on par with their peers imo.

We need to also realize that not all kids have the same learning capacities of others. So some may not ever "get math".

Should they continuously be "held back"?

I get that the no child left behind standardized stuff has dumbest some things down. But I also think that we need to look at ways to lift all boats.

Can a child be "held back" forever?

 

[The Hammer]

Can a child be "held back" forever?

Idk? Ask Billy Madison.

 

[Secret Chief]

Even if politicking hadn't resulted in some of the worst education in a wealthy nation due to classissm based budget cuts and incurious conspiracy and theocratic thinking, and we had the best education around, mistrust would still be a healthy response. Because that's just how critical thinking works. You know, you've done well as an educator if you teach the kids how to research new information and apply it to previous data, update your conclusions. And be genuinely curious without being ingenuously contrarian because you hold a prior belief.

But creationists and conspiracy theorists are only part of the problem. There's another type of mistrust that is just not talked about a lot.

There's less interest in school because of increasing generational wealth gaps means a lot of gen z and elder gen alpha don't care about school. Why care when the continuously ignored housing and health and climate crisis keeps getting worse. When the apathy of their elders means most of them won't have happy basic needs lives no matter how well they do? Why trust that education is going to do you any good in that situation? The disenfranchisement is not just a problem with people who don't want to learn, but with people who think that there's no point in learning.

"Parents in England no longer subscribe to the view that their children need to be in school full-time, according to new research which says there has been “a seismic shift” in attitudes to attendance since the pandemic.

For decades, attendance at school by all pupils every day throughout term time has been part of a social contract between schools and families, but the report says this is no longer the case.


The disruption first caused by Covid, then compounded by a cost-of-living crisis and an epidemic of mental ill health among young people, has led to what researchers describe as a profound breakdown in the relationship between schools and parents from across the socioeconomic spectrum."


- Parents in England no longer see daily school attendance as vital, report finds

 

[Secret Chief]

To add to this the idea that testing well is an indication of future success beyond the classroom is demonstrably untrue. It's not nearly dynamic enough to reflect the real world or even future results in that field. And we have no shortages of noteworthy achievers who did poorly in their respective schools. Testing is a skill and not a particularly useful one because in real life most of our jobs are open book, open calculator, open internet. Better you know where to go to get up-to-date Information rather than how to regurgitate it. Similarly, the better a school understands how to handle different learning styles the better the students will be equipped to individually problem solve.

"Where you are born in the UK and the wealth of your family are the key factors that determine life outcomes, new figures reveal"

- Now it’s clear: hard work doesn’t make you rich. Surely that’s the death knell for the myth of social mobility | Faiza Shaheen

 

[Secret Chief]

From seeing some American contributions on RF, I'm wondering if the single most important subject to teach American children is basic geology.

 

[Valjean]

I'd say many Americans need to learn just what science is, including basic scientific method and evidence assessment. Many here seem to have no idea how science works, how it knows what it knows, and assume scientists are just speculating or making things up out of thin air.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think it's the result of a system that sacrifices knowledge to being politically correct.

What are some examples of this?

 

[Debater Slayer]

If belief in creationism is so common that is an indication that critical thinking hasn't been taught effectively - and probably neither has science.

Not with religion only politically - and that wasn't very effective.

I agree that indoctrination is difficult to overcome, but that is the duty of a good education. And if the education doesn't overcome indoctrination, it has failed.

I think indoctrination is far more complicated than that, and there's evidence contradicting the idea that education or sound argumentation has such a neat inverse relation with beliefs resulting from indoctrination. For example:

Can arguments change minds? Philosophers like to think that they can: by engaging in the (presumably rational) process of carefully considering reasons in favour or against a given position or view, we update our beliefs accordingly.1 According to this optimistic view, famously defended by John Stuart Mill in particular, not only do we change our minds when exposed to (compelling) arguments (a descriptive claim), but we also improve our overall epistemic position by the careful considerations of reasons (an evaluative claim).

However, a wealth of empirical and anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that arguments are in fact not very efficient tools to change minds (Gordon-Smith 2019; McIntyre 2021). For example, the well-documented phenomenon of polarization (Isenberg 1986; Sunstein 2002) suggests that, when exposed to arguments supporting positions different from their prior views, people often (though perhaps not always) become even more convinced of their prior views rather than being swayed by arguments (Olsson 2013). Frequently, argumentative encounters look rather like games where participants want to ‘score points’ (Cohen 1995; Dutilh Novaes 2021) rather than engage in painstaking consideration of different views for the sake of epistemic improvement.

What to make of these different assessments of the mind-changing potential of arguments? To address this issue, it seems that we need to look beyond the content and quality2 of arguments alone: we must also take into account the broader contexts in which they occur, in particular the propagation of messages across networks of communication, and the choices that epistemic agents must make between alternative potential sources of content and information. These choices are very much influenced by perceptions of reliability and trustworthiness, which means that the source of the argument may be even more decisive than its content or quality when it comes to how persuasive it will be for a given person. (In this respect, argumentation would be more akin to testimony than one might expect, as I have argued elsewhere: Dutilh Novaes 2020b.) In a nutshell: arguments may well be able to change minds, but only under conducive, favourable socio-epistemic conditions.

VII—Can Arguments Change Minds?

Abstract. Can arguments change minds? Philosophers like to think that they can. However, a wealth of empirical evidence suggests that arguments are not ver

academic.oup.com

Frequently, specific religious and cultural communities retain beliefs that are highly distinct from the prevalent ones in some societies despite attending schools under the same education system as the rest of the population (as is the case with some conservative Muslim communities in France and the UK). Culture, peer and family pressure, and religious upbringing are a few factors that sometimes shape one's worldview far more strongly than education does.