Education Distrust

[Debater Slayer]

There Is Rampant Distrust in Education. Here's How to Fix That (Opinion)

Is it possible to replace a culture of long-simmering distrust? Only if education leaders make some serious changes, writes Katherine Schultz.

www.edweek.org

Why do so many people distrust education, and/or the educated?

In the US? I don't know enough about the situation to definitively answer that, although it seems that in recent years, political polarization has contributed to the demonization of education and some experts mainly on political grounds, as in the case of medical organizations that support the medical validity of COVID vaccines and gender-affirming care.

In my country? Because the education system is atrociously bad by global standards, and distrusting it is a perfectly healthy response. It also contains a lot of outdated information and religious prejudice as well as insufficient encouragement of critical thinking. Even then, many (possibly most) people still highly respect education, and having a university degree tends to confer significantly improved social status in many contexts.

As for trusting or distrusting the educated, I think that mostly depends on the educated person in question and the topic of discussion. I trust expert consensus to most likely be the position backed by the most evidence in a given field, but I don't trust anti-vax doctors or biologists who deny evolution. Being educated isn't synonymous with basing one's beliefs about a given subject on evidence and sound logic, nor does it entail the elimination of the biases and flawed heuristics that are part of human nature. It may temper and reduce them if one makes proper use of their education, though.

 

[SalixIncendium]

What are some examples of this?

See Education Distrust.

 

[Debater Slayer]

See Education Distrust.

Thanks. I had missed that.

I think imposing competition on all students can be quite unhealthy in some cases, especially given that people are born with different levels of talent and mental aptitude and in different socioeconomic circumstances. I see identifying the strengths and weaknesses of each student and educating them accordingly as much more reasonable than expecting everyone to perform and compete per the same rubric, although I also think the option of competition should still be there for students who want to opt into it or feel more motivated by it (since there's evidence that healthy competition enhances education).

This doesn't mean allowing everyone to pass even if they flunk their classes, but it could mean tailoring the passing requirements to the different needs and talents of students (e.g., having gifted classes with different material, as is already the case in many schools in some countries).

 

[SalixIncendium]

Thanks. I had missed that.

I think imposing competition on all students can be quite unhealthy in some cases, especially given that people are born with different levels of talent and mental aptitude and in different socioeconomic circumstances. I see identifying the strengths and weaknesses of each student and educating them accordingly as much more reasonable than expecting everyone to perform and compete per the same rubric, although I also think the option of competition should still be there for students who want to opt into it or feel more motivated by it (since there's evidence that healthy competition enhances education).

This doesn't mean allowing everyone to pass even if they flunk their classes, but it could mean tailoring the passing requirements to the different needs and talents of students (e.g., having gifted classes with different material, as is already the case in many schools in some countries).

But tailored education isn't he norm here in the states except in extreme cases. We teach everyone the same curricula and push everyone through whether they succeed or fail, and then dumb down curricula to compensate for those that fail to push more students through to graduation.

 

[Debater Slayer]

But tailored education isn't he norm here in the states except in extreme cases. We teach everyone the same curricula and push everyone through whether they succeed or fail, and then dumb down curricula to compensate for those that fail to push more students through to graduation.

I think such an approach would need improvement. I believe a degree has to mean something, and if an education system pushes everyone through regardless of performance and uses the same rubric for everyone because it can't accommodate different needs and skills, it's doing something wrong.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Here is an interesting article that discusses in more detail what I have been talking about ITT for anyone who is interested:

Dumbing Down K-12 Education

While 25 other nations outperform U.S. K-12 public school students academically, we tout data that ranks our students against other American students. States boast about outperforming other states.

www.discovery.org

 

[Debater Slayer]

Here is an interesting article that discusses in more detail what I have been talking about ITT for anyone who is interested:

Dumbing Down K-12 Education

While 25 other nations outperform U.S. K-12 public school students academically, we tout data that ranks our students against other American students. States boast about outperforming other states.

www.discovery.org

Thanks. I'll check out the link now, although I'm skeptical of the Discovery Institute due to its insufficient credibility and extreme bias. For example:

Analysis of the Discovery Institute's Bibliography | National Center for Science Education

2002 Ohio Board of Education Science Standards Executive Summary On March 11, 2002, the Discovery Institute — a Seattle, Washington, organization that seeks to promote "intelligent design" — submitted its "

ncse.ngo

 

[SalixIncendium]

Thanks. I'll check out the link now, although I'm skeptical of the Discovery Institute due to its insufficient credibility and extreme bias. For example:

Analysis of the Discovery Institute's Bibliography | National Center for Science Education

2002 Ohio Board of Education Science Standards Executive Summary On March 11, 2002, the Discovery Institute — a Seattle, Washington, organization that seeks to promote "intelligent design" — submitted its "

ncse.ngo

My antivirus software lit up like a Christmas tree when I clicked that link. Naturally, I clicked away immediately. Might want to find another resource to link, as I'm not confident others computers are so well protected.

 

[Debater Slayer]

My antivirus software lit up like a Christmas tree when I clicked that link. Naturally, I clicked away immediately. Might want to find another resource to link, as I'm not confident others computers are so well protected.

Strange. I've used that site before and seen it linked by others here and elsewhere, and this is the first time someone has encountered such an issue.

I'll replace it in my post now. Feel free to replace it in the quote as well if you prefer to.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Strange. I've used that site before and seen it linked by others here and elsewhere, and this is the first time someone has encountered such an issue.

I'll replace it in my post now. Feel free to replace it in the quote as well if you prefer to.

Done.

I was unaware before I posted the Discovery Institute link of their bias, but I'll admit after doing some research on my own, they are biased and lean conservative, and I saw one that they support intelligent design. I just grabbed one of the first links that came up on a Google search and read it. So I see your skepticism.

Read the article or not. But if you do, please let me know if you find error in any of the statistics contained therein.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Here is an interesting article that discusses in more detail what I have been talking about ITT for anyone who is interested:

Dumbing Down K-12 Education

While 25 other nations outperform U.S. K-12 public school students academically, we tout data that ranks our students against other American students. States boast about outperforming other states.

www.discovery.org

Yep, an example of the bias I'm talking about:

As if to pour salt in the wound, when in-person public schooling was reinstated in many urban areas and beyond, instead of focusing on academic instruction, school boards, administrators, and teachers advanced curriculum agendas centering on a host of other topics. These include gender redefinition and self-selection, a twisted anti-American historical narrative, Critical Race Theory, and other woke academics under the increasingly familiar guise of innocent-sounding terms — diversity, inclusion, equity, and social justice.

Redefining equity as equal outcome rather than equal opportunity, challenging students academically with high standards is now viewed as discrimination. Consequently, advanced courses are being removed because students of some races and ethnicities aren’t represented proportionately.

While I have no doubt that the American education system has issues, I don't think I can trust their assessment thereof or their claims about it, since much of the article seems based on highly partisan politics and buzzwords rather than evidence or factually accurate observations.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Yep, an example of the bias I'm talking about:



While I have no doubt that the American education system has issues, I don't think I can trust their assessment thereof or their claims about it, since much of the article seems based on highly partisan politics and buzzwords rather than evidence or factually accurate observations.

I was primarily looking at statistics and not the political jargon/rhetoric.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Done.

I was unaware before I posted the Discovery Institute link of their bias, but I'll admit after doing some research on my own, they are biased an lean conservative, and I saw one that they support intelligent design. So I see your skepticism.

Read the article or not. But if you do, please let me know if you find error in any of the statistics contained therein.

I've read it, since I believe in assessing claims from different sources even when I find a source dubious. They provide some cogent arguments about how the American education system performs poorly compared to systems in multiple developed countries, although they don't seem to propose evidence-based solutions or sufficiently decouple their suggestions from highly biased politics.

The issue of how the pandemic has affected education is a significant one, so I think it's good that they shed light on it even if I disagree with the conclusions they have drawn.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I've read it, since I believe in assessing claims from different sources even when I find a source dubious. They provide some cogent arguments about how the American education system performs poorly compared to systems in multiple developed countries, although they don't seem to propose evidence-based solutions or sufficiently decouple their suggestions from highly biased politics.

I haven't seen any viable solutions, evidence based or otherwise, presented here or elsewhere to fix the current issues.

The issue of how the pandemic has affected education is a significant one, so I think it's good that they shed light on it even if I disagree with the conclusions they have drawn.

Perhaps, but both my kids graduated before the pandemic 14 years apart, and I've not only see the disparity between my education and theirs, but between that of the elder and the younger in a 14 timeframe...in the same school district.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I haven't seen any viable solutions, evidence based or otherwise, presented here or elsewhere to fix the current issues.

I'm no expert, so I don't have a clear solution myself. It seems to me that fixing the education system has unfortunately been taking a back seat to partisan politics and military adventurism for a number of years, though.

Perhaps, but both my kids graduated before the pandemic 14 years apart, and I've not only see the disparity between my education and theirs, but between that of the elder and the younger in a 14 timeframe.

That must be concerning to see. My own country has had a disparity between the education of those born in the '50s or earlier and those born after. The former grew up with a far better education system.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

As far as vaccination go, distrusting the education system has nothing to do with itimo. I think it’s just those people rely on the immune system that God gave them imo.

The COVID antivaxxers were a different breed from the earlier antivax movement, which mostly had to do with refusing to get children vaccinated for fear of causing autism, so it was pseudoscientific in origin and included soccer moms with SUVs. This one seemed to be some form of tribalism and anti-intellectualism/anti-scientism. It had a political component. Trumpers including much of rural America were drawn to hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin and learned to fear Fauci, hospitals, and vaccination. Once people begin trusting the people who lie to them, you're not likely to be able to reach them any more whether that's political indoctrination (election hoax, anti-vax, dewormer) or religious faith (creationism)

I'm skeptical of the Discovery Institute due to its insufficient credibility and extreme bias.

Good call. They had a creationist agenda two decades ago, and maybe still do.

Some people talk about schools indoctrinating children, but I don't really see that as possible.

You don't? When I was a boy, we mindlessly pledged allegiance to the flag (one nation under God) every weekday morning. We were taught about how the brave minute men defeated the evil King George. Before every baseball game I listened to, I heard the Star-Spangled Banner (O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?) We were taught that America wore the white hats in World War two saving Europe and the free world from the Nazis.

Still, most education in public schools should not be called indoctrination.

When the apathy of their elders means most of them won't have happy basic needs lives no matter how well they do?

You've hit on what I consider to be a major factor - American tension and pessimism. It's in the air.

Many of my local friends and acquaintances here in Mexico are American expats like we are, and many live in more than one country like my friend David here:

"We are just back from 5 months in the States and the situation there is very grim. All the way from Florida to California. Except for the excellent roadways, things are going downhill-fast. Prices rising due to corporate greed, a divided populace the likes of which I have never seen and the vituperative approach when speaking to someone of a different political mentality which precedes the complete cutoff of any type of meaningful discussion. Its bad, really bad."

They're not school kids, but children live under that pall as well. The culture has a disease that is just as anti-human as extreme poverty - a poverty of human spirit as it were that's now more base and mean.

When over 30% believe in creationism, distrust in education is warranted.

Does that reflect a defect in academic education methods or some other aspect of the culture? How can the schools compete with Sunday schools and parents teaching their children to respect faith and distrust reason, education, universities, science, and "eggheads"? That "disease" - that toxic meme - will determine their futures in too many cases.

If belief in creationism is so common that is an indication that critical thinking hasn't been taught effectively - and probably neither has science. if the education doesn't overcome indoctrination, it has failed.

As I just wrote, I don't expect the teachers to be able to overcome the teaching of the kids' parents in most cases, which includes indoctrinating them in religious and conservative memes. Those who overcome that will do so in university if they get that far.

 

[Stevicus]

I've read it, since I believe in assessing claims from different sources even when I find a source dubious. They provide some cogent arguments about how the American education system performs poorly compared to systems in multiple developed countries, although they don't seem to propose evidence-based solutions or sufficiently decouple their suggestions from highly biased politics.

The issue of how the pandemic has affected education is a significant one, so I think it's good that they shed light on it even if I disagree with the conclusions they have drawn.

One thing that I've observed, at least when comparing the U.S. to other countries, is that other countries seem to have much greater respect for teachers and the job they do than what I typically see in the U.S. Even education itself has been largely disrespected in the popular culture, as the smarter kids might be scorned or dismissed as "brains," "nerds," "goody two-shoes," etc. Jocks, drug dealers, and gang bangers tend to get greater respect and have higher social standing in school environments than those who do well academically. This is also reflected in the lack of discipline in the schools, whereas schools in other parts of the world appear to be stricter and more disciplined than we would typically see in U.S. culture.

Some of the problems are not solely due to the educational system itself, but due to other social issues, such as housing, drug abuse, crime, poverty, malnutrition, dysfunctional/broken family units, and a general sense of apathy, malaise, and angst evident within the culture. Fixing the schools and improving education requires addressing numerous other societal issues which many people don't really want to address.

 

[Stevicus]

You don't? When I was a boy, we mindlessly pledged allegiance to the flag (one nation under God) every weekday morning. We were taught about how the brave minute men defeated the evil King George. Before every baseball game I listened to, I heard the Star-Spangled Banner (O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?) We were taught that America wore the white hats in World War two saving Europe and the free world from the Nazis.

Still, most education in public schools should not be called indoctrination.

Yes, I remember saying the Pledge of Allegiance, although that never really took with lots of kids. By the time I was 12 or 13, someone would come on the school's PA system to read the morning announcements and say "Please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance." Kids were required to stand, but most didn't put their hands on their hearts or actually say the Pledge. By the time I reached high school (late 70s), they stopped saying the Pledge altogether.

Far less successful were the attempts to educate children about the evils of smoking marijuana. Whenever cops would visit the school to give us the standard "don't use drugs" lecture, most kids would daydream, while a few would snicker and mock the presentation.

 

[Jimmy]

So why aren't they squawking about all the other vaccines? Do they eschew antibiotics, as well? How about any medical treatment?

Probably because it’s illegal to not get your child vaccinated.

 

[Jimmy]

The COVID antivaxxers were a different breed from the earlier antivax movement, which mostly had to do with refusing to get children vaccinated for fear of causing autism, so it was pseudoscientific in origin and included soccer moms with SUVs. This one seemed to be some form of tribalism and anti-intellectualism/anti-scientism. It had a political component. Trumpers including much of rural America were drawn to hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin and learned to fear Fauci, hospitals, and vaccination. Once people begin trusting the people who lie to them, you're not likely to be able to reach them any more whether that's political indoctrination (election hoax, anti-vax, dewormer) or religious faith (creationism)

Good call. They had a creationist agenda two decades ago, and maybe still do.

You don't? When I was a boy, we mindlessly pledged allegiance to the flag (one nation under God) every weekday morning. We were taught about how the brave minute men defeated the evil King George. Before every baseball game I listened to, I heard the Star-Spangled Banner (O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?) We were taught that America wore the white hats in World War two saving Europe and the free world from the Nazis.

Still, most education in public schools should not be called indoctrination.

You've hit on what I consider to be a major factor - American tension and pessimism. It's in the air.

Many of my local friends and acquaintances here in Mexico are American expats like we are, and many live in more than one country like my friend David here:

"We are just back from 5 months in the States and the situation there is very grim. All the way from Florida to California. Except for the excellent roadways, things are going downhill-fast. Prices rising due to corporate greed, a divided populace the likes of which I have never seen and the vituperative approach when speaking to someone of a different political mentality which precedes the complete cutoff of any type of meaningful discussion. Its bad, really bad."

They're not school kids, but children live under that pall as well. The culture has a disease that is just as anti-human as extreme poverty - a poverty of human spirit as it were that's now more base and mean.

Does that reflect a defect in academic education methods or some other aspect of the culture? How can the schools compete with Sunday schools and parents teaching their children to respect faith and distrust reason, education, universities, science, and "eggheads"? That "disease" - that toxic meme - will determine their futures in too many cases.

As I just wrote, I don't expect the teachers to be able to overcome the teaching of the kids' parents in most cases, which includes indoctrinating them in religious and conservative memes. Those who overcome that will do so in university if they get that far.

I disagree