Egypt under Mubarak

[England my lionheart]

Yes, I suppose it's fair to assume that however this comes out Israel risks losing a valuable collaborator in their illegal and devastating collective punishment of Gazans, and may come under increased pressure not to be such intolerable thugs in Palestine. I don't see that as an entirely bad thing, though. I strongly disapprove of how Israel has behaved with the benefit of Mubarak's "blank cheque" approach.

Seems you'd rather have Hamas's illegal punishment of Israel

 

[LuisDantas]

Sadat 1 year

I take it that you meant eleven years?

 

[doppelganger]

Why is it my business (or that of my elected representatives) to participate in choosing someone else's government? Has that ever worked out well for anyone involved?

 

[Rakhel]

Why is it my business (or that of my elected representatives) to participate in choosing someone else's government? Has that ever worked out well for anyone involved?

In a word? No.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I think there is an insidious view in the West that Arabs are incapable of ruling themselves.

It goes back to all that white mans burden crap of colonialism. Still Mubarak is an American Stooge that is propped up by American money and military goods.
The Egyptians in the streets are showing the tear gas canisters use against them, they stay USA on them. No wonder they don't like us.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Now, that's not exactly fair. The West has played a critical role in arming and bank-rolling ME dictators

And overthrowing ME democracies.

 

[beenie]

I think there is an insidious view in the West that Arabs are incapable of ruling themselves.
Perhaps it flows from the colonial past? - I know the same view was (and is) held by some regarding my own country.

Being all for freedom is empty when it does not extend to those you fear.

good point. i wish we would let them figure it out.

Amen to that. As much as I hate to say it, the arguments against Egyptian Democracy don't seem to amount to much more than "because they're Arabs" or "because they're Muslims". In my primate heart I'm just as much of a xenophobe as the next gal, but nevertheless I am not at all sucked in by that type of argument. I couldn't claim any rights or privileges for myself that I wouldn't extend to everyone.

i commend you for that. i think we are all xenophobic to some degree whether we admit it or not.

Arabs are quite capable of ruling themselves its just how they do it that's controversial

controversial because they don't rule like we do? controversial to whom? certainly they have their struggles, but some of their leadership corresponds with their culture, not ours. not every country can be run like ours.

It goes back to all that white mans burden crap of colonialism. Still Mubarak is an American Stooge that is propped up by American money and military goods.
The Egyptians in the streets are showing the tear gas canisters use against them, they stay USA on them. No wonder they don't like us.

ironic, isn't it?

 

[kai]

controversial because they don't rule like we do? controversial to whom? certainly they have their struggles, but some of their leadership corresponds with their culture, not ours. not every country can be run like ours.

No controversial to human rights usually! on the contrary why cant every country have the same values as regards human rights.

 

[kai]

It goes back to all that white mans burden crap of colonialism. Still Mubarak is an American Stooge that is propped up by American money and military goods.
The Egyptians in the streets are showing the tear gas canisters use against them, they stay USA on them. No wonder they don't like us.

How long is the white mans burden thing going to be an excuse for every ill wind that blows in the world? 50 years 500 years?

and the USA didnt fire those Gas cannisters at them and i bet there some people alluding that they had some involvement in it.

 

[Alceste]

Seems you'd rather have Hamas's illegal punishment of Israel

Israel's war crimes in Palestine predated the election of Hamas by many years. I'd rather nobody commits any war crimes. Israel commits more war crimes and violations of human rights than Hamas, so I'm (proportionately) more annoyed with them than I am with Hamas. End of story. I just can't get into the whole "one set of rules for 'them', another for 'us' mentality pro-Israel arguments depend on to hold water. Crime is crime, murder is murder. Israel has murdered ten or twenty times as many Palestinians than the other way around. So I'm ten or twenty times more annoyed with them.

 

[dust1n]

Can someone inform me of the Muslim Brotherhood's involvement in the Egyptian landscape? Or at least point me towards some valuable material?

 

[Alceste]

i commend you for that. i think we are all xenophobic to some degree whether we admit it or not.

Well, admitting you have a problem is the first step on the path to recovery, so they say. To be honest, though, the concerns I have about Islamic influence are pretty much identical to the ones I have about Christian influence and Zionist influence, so at least my irrational fear and hatred of the other is based on something that makes more of a meaningful difference to one's actual psychology and behavior than simply ethnicity.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I take it that you meant eleven years?

Thanks ... I have corrected the error....

 

[kai]

Can someone inform me of the Muslim Brotherhood's involvement in the Egyptian landscape? Or at least point me towards some valuable material?

google it and start there

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

How long is the white mans burden thing going to be an excuse for every ill wind that blows in the world? 50 years 500 years?

I wish that human nature was different. But repression and brutality has it effects. It is the same all over the world. If you repress a group of people it not only effects them but also future generations.

and the USA didnt fire those Gas cannisters at them and i bet there some people alluding that they had some involvement in it.

If we did not sell it to repressive governments it would not be an issue.
I believe this all comes down to oil. We need it, if we don't get it our economies will collapse. The repressive governments use this addiction to stay in power. The only solution is alternate forms of energy. The West needs to start a program to find a solution. We should do for energy what JFK did for space. An all out no holds bar search for a solution. This would also be better for the Mid East. Poor countries that depend on oil exports seem to be as corrupt as those who depend on drug exports. Both tend to be extremely bad for human rights.

 

[England my lionheart]

Israel's war crimes in Palestine predated the election of Hamas by many years. I'd rather nobody commits any war crimes. Israel commits more war crimes and violations of human rights than Hamas, so I'm (proportionately) more annoyed with them than I am with Hamas. End of story. I just can't get into the whole "one set of rules for 'them', another for 'us' mentality pro-Israel arguments depend on to hold water. Crime is crime, murder is murder. Israel has murdered ten or twenty times as many Palestinians than the other way around. So I'm ten or twenty times more annoyed with them.

You are correct,the conflict with Israel pre dates Hamas but it doesn't predated the MBs,its all in the history books so one only needs to look,perhaps thats for another thread though who did this and that will accomplish nothing.

 

[England my lionheart]

Can someone inform me of the Muslim Brotherhood's involvement in the Egyptian landscape? Or at least point me towards some valuable material?

Possibly the Hamas Charter opens with a statement by the founder of the MB which is most valuable IMO

 

[England my lionheart]

Just been watching the violence between supporters of Mubarak and the protesters,doesn't look good.

 

[Alceste]

Just been watching the violence between supporters of Mubarak and the protesters,doesn't look good.

By "supporters of Mubarak" do you mean police or the military?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Now, that's not exactly fair. The West has played a critical role in arming and bank-rolling ME dictators since the sun set on the British empire's control of the region. It's not easy to oust a thug who has the benefit of a billion and a half worth of US-donated guns, tear gas, tazers and waterboards a year and has no qualms about using them on dissidents. I would phrase it more like this: Arabs are beginning to demonstrate that they value their freedom more than their lives.

It would kill you to agree with me on anything right?