Do you have a problem with how the Egyptian military is handling the situation?
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Egypt under Mubarak
- Thread starter Alceste
- Start date
Do you have a problem with how the Egyptian military is handling the situation?
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I think westerners need to sit down, shut up, and support the brave Egyptians in fighting their government.
Egypt we love you!
Egypt we love you!
Alceste
Vagabond
It would kill you to agree with me on anything right?
Let's say I totally agree with the sentiment while objecting to the words used to express it.
Alceste
Vagabond
It's a little unclear at the moment whether the thousands of "Mubarak supporters" who have been bussed in to beat up the protesters are police, military, security forces or all three. If they're military, then yes I have a problem. As I understand it, the uniformed military at least remains neutral, which I approve of, but hasn't done much to prevent Mubarak's thugs from causing trouble, which annoys me.
Don't know what that's worth, though. I must have missed the call when the Egyptian military called me for a policy consultation.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
The BBC has reported that the protesters had captured numerous Police and government agents and removed their passes and police identity cards. These people have also admitted that they were paid to be there and try to cause trouble and intimidate protesters.
kai
ragamuffin
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Perspective, perspective, perspective. Just as I was "poor" and yet "rich" at the same time, Egypt has been "secular, free, and prosperous" and "extreme, oppressed, and poverty stricken" simultaneously.
Some interesting facts about Egypt (and fair warning - I am going to post these in several threads because they are relevant):
Since implementing relevant pro-business economic reforms, the modern Egyptian economy has become one of the fastest growing among emerging markets. In contrast to a low of 3.2 percent in the 2002-2003 fiscal years, Egypt experienced GDP growth of 7.2 percent for the third year in a row till the first quarter of 2009.
Growth has been broad-based across manufacturing, the hydrocarbon sector, construction, services, tourism and agriculture, with the main drivers being private consumption and investment supported by relatively large inflows of FDI.
Since 2005, Egypt's annual GDP growth rates have outpaced averages for the newly industrialized Asian economies and the entire Middle East.
International Recognition
Job Creation
Rising Human Development
Between 1980 and 2007 Egypt’s Human Development Index (HDI) rose 42%. The HDI is a measure of development progress based on health, education and income. This level of growth is among the tenth largest worldwide tied with Pakistan.
Since the launch of the Economic Reform program in 2005, Egypt has sustained and broad based growth in all sectors of the economy; achievements that have been recognized by the international community most notably in the World Bank’s Annual Doing business report where Egypt has been designated as a top global reformer for the fourth year in a row.
Egypt News, Egypt Current Events, Modern Egyptian Society, Egyptian Tourism | Modern Egypt Info
Some interesting facts about Egypt (and fair warning - I am going to post these in several threads because they are relevant):
Since implementing relevant pro-business economic reforms, the modern Egyptian economy has become one of the fastest growing among emerging markets. In contrast to a low of 3.2 percent in the 2002-2003 fiscal years, Egypt experienced GDP growth of 7.2 percent for the third year in a row till the first quarter of 2009.
Growth has been broad-based across manufacturing, the hydrocarbon sector, construction, services, tourism and agriculture, with the main drivers being private consumption and investment supported by relatively large inflows of FDI.
Since 2005, Egypt's annual GDP growth rates have outpaced averages for the newly industrialized Asian economies and the entire Middle East.
International Recognition
- Egypt was named the top regional reformer for 2009 and in the top ten globally in the annual World Bank publication Doing Business.
- H.E. Mahmoud Mohieldin, the Minister of Investment in Egypt since 2004, was nominated a Young Global Leader of the World Economic Forum and a member of the Commission on Growth and Development in 2005.
Job Creation
- Egypt's work force - at 24.8 million people - is the largest among Arab countries and the third largest in the Middle East and North African region.
- Egypt's economic liberalization policies have led to a significant increase in investments, which has brought down unemployment in Egypt from 11.8 percent in 2005 to 8.6 percent in 2008.
- The Minister of Trade and Industry, Rashid Mohamed Rashid, has taken an active role in encouraging export-oriented manufacturing. Under his watch, export revenues have increased by 50 percent.
- In the past five years, the government has negotiated free-trade agreements and preferential trading arrangements with Arab States (Pan Arab Free Trade Area), COMESA (East and Southern Africa), the EU (Partnership Agreement) and Turkey.
- Modern Egypt has an open and flourishing stock market that ranks number two in the entire Middle East region, second only to Bahrain.
- Egypt continues to receive significant levels of foreign direct investment (FDI). Its FDI reached nearly $20 billion in 2008, a 40 percent increase over the previous year.
Rising Human Development
Between 1980 and 2007 Egypt’s Human Development Index (HDI) rose 42%. The HDI is a measure of development progress based on health, education and income. This level of growth is among the tenth largest worldwide tied with Pakistan.
- Egypt’s average annual HDI growth was 10th fastest worldwide and almost double the global average.
Since the launch of the Economic Reform program in 2005, Egypt has sustained and broad based growth in all sectors of the economy; achievements that have been recognized by the international community most notably in the World Bank’s Annual Doing business report where Egypt has been designated as a top global reformer for the fourth year in a row.
- This sustained economic development has allowed the Government to increase tax revenues by 67% while reducing overall tax rates by half.
- This increase in tax revenue has also allowe the governent to nearly double social spening in the national budget in the same period
- Most importantly, the Egyptian economy has been able to create 3.4 Million jobs between 2005/2006 & 2008/2009
- The Government of Egypt’s reform program has paid off for all Egyptians. Between 2005 & 2008 Poverty, as defined by those living under $2/day, fell over 11%
- The reform program has not achieved growth at the expense of a growing gap between rich and poor in Egypt. In fact the Gini Index, the international measure of wealth inequality, actually fell 7% between 1999 & 2007.
- Further evidence of this, is that the share of the poorest 10% in national income rose 5% and the share of richest 10% feel 6% in the same period. The ratio of the wealth of the richest to the poorest 10% also fell 10%. All of which indicates a more just distribution of wealth.
- Nonetheless, the Government is committed enhancing the social returns of reform through improved targeting of social programs
- The percentage of women registered for voting increased from 18 percent in 1986 to 39.8 percent in 2007;
- In 2003, a woman was made a justice on the Supreme Constitutional Court by presidential decree, officially making her the country's first-ever female judge;
- In 2007, 30 women were appointed as judges presiding over family courts;
- Recently, Egypt's parliament passed a law allocating a quota of 64 seats in the lower house to women, thus giving women more than 12 percent of the seats in an expanded parliament after the next election in 2010. In comparison, women make up 17 percent of the U.S. Congress. Conversely, Egypt's neighbors do not have female representation of that level: women make up 8 percent of Kuwait's parliament and hold 2 percent of the parliament seats in Lebanon;
- 25.7% of top management positions in the state are held by women
- The proportion of women holding public office increased from 7 percent in 1988 to 23.5 percent in 2003.
- The first woman cabinet minister was appointed in 1962. Ever since, women have been assigned at least one or two portfolios in each cabinet. Currently, three women serve in the cabinet: Minister of Manpower and Immigration Aisha Abdel-Hady Abdel-Ghany, Minister of International Cooperation Fayza Abul Naga and Minister of State for Family and Population Mosheera Mahmoud Khattab.
- In 2008, Egypt became the first country in the Muslim World to appoint a female wedding officer (Maazun) to undertake Muslim marriage procedures.
- Women account for 49 percent of students enrolled in universities and higher education institutions;
- Total enrollment rate of females in all the stages of pre-university education showed higher levels than those for male enrollment in 2004-2005;
- In the middle of the 20th century, Cairo's al-Azhar University, the second oldest university in the world still in operation, underwent a series of reforms that led to, amongst other things, the opening of a women's college.
- Egypt has succeeded in achieving significant reduction in the maternal mortality ratio, mortality rates have declined from 84 per thousand in 2000 to 62.7 per thousand in 2006.
- In 2001, the Ministry of Health and Population in collaboration with USAID started implementing a National Maternal Mortality Surveillance System (NMMSS);
- There was a significant increase in the proportions of mothers assisted at delivery by medical provider - from 61.5 percent in 2000 to 78.6 percent in 2006;
- There was also a significant increase in the proportions of women who delivered in health facilities - from 48.2 percent in 2000 to 64.6 percent in 2005;
- The contraceptive prevalence rate has shown an increasing trend over time: from 47.6 percent in 1991 to 56.1 percent in 2000 then to 59.2 percent in 2005;
- The percentage of women who gave birth at an age younger than 18 decreased from 23.7 in 1992 to 20.4 in 2000 then to 15.8 in 2005.
Egypt News, Egypt Current Events, Modern Egyptian Society, Egyptian Tourism | Modern Egypt Info
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
That's not saying there's not MUCH room for improvement, and that's not saying the Egyptian people shouldn't demand a much more democratic form of government, or, hell, any form of government they want for that matter.
I'm just trying to flesh out the picture of Egypt as a whole. So often those "on the outside looking in" superimpose their ideas of what a country is like based on vague mental images. It would be a mistake to equate Egypt with, say, Afghanistan or Iran or Dubai or Bahrain, just as it would be a mistake to imagine that Texas is filled predominately with cowboys wearing big hats or that Detroit personifies American cities.
I'm just trying to flesh out the picture of Egypt as a whole. So often those "on the outside looking in" superimpose their ideas of what a country is like based on vague mental images. It would be a mistake to equate Egypt with, say, Afghanistan or Iran or Dubai or Bahrain, just as it would be a mistake to imagine that Texas is filled predominately with cowboys wearing big hats or that Detroit personifies American cities.
dmgdnooc
Active Member
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I've found this same information scattered across the internet on various sites. This site had this information all on one site so was easier to use.
If you can find any neutral sites which refute these claims, please feel free to post them. I am on a quest for truth - not on a quest to further any sort of agenda or to bolster my preconceived notions on this topic.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
By the way, I am not saying that I think reform is unnecessary in Egypt, or that I think Mubarak is a great guy. All I've tried to do is be as objective as possible in my research on this topic. I think I've made it very clear that I support the Egyptian people's quest for a more democratic system that betters more people.
We can't get a clear picture of the situation in Egypt if we refuse to look at the WHOLE picture. Part of that picture is that the standards of living - which include banking, education, women's rights, freedom of press - are higher in Egypt than in most of the surrounding countries.
Of COURSE - considering the poor standard of living in many countries in that region - that's not saying that Egypt can't improve dramatically.
It's simply putting it in perspective.
We can't get a clear picture of the situation in Egypt if we refuse to look at the WHOLE picture. Part of that picture is that the standards of living - which include banking, education, women's rights, freedom of press - are higher in Egypt than in most of the surrounding countries.
Of COURSE - considering the poor standard of living in many countries in that region - that's not saying that Egypt can't improve dramatically.
It's simply putting it in perspective.
Alceste
Vagabond
Propaganda doesn't "put things in perspective". It attempts to frame the issues in a way that is favorable to one single perspective.
UmmSqueakster
Member
I apologize for not reading the thread, but I feel this is important to say:
AbuS (my egyptian born and raised husband) is currently working on putting together a history of the youth movement in Egypt in the last 10 years. Last night, he was reviewing internet videos about police abuse, and the young people who had been fighting to expose it.
The videos are perhaps the most disturbing things I have ever seen.
They were shot by the police, and show prisoners, most likely innocent, being sodomized by broom handles. The prisoners' screams and yells of pain have haunted me since I saw them last night, and I believe they will haunt me until the day I die.
These videos represent a tiny fraction, less than a minute part of 1% of the brutality the police have freely showered on the Egyptian people during Mubarak's reign. Every egyptian I have spoken to has a story of someone they know who has been taken by the police for no reason and abused, soley to perpetrate fear in the population.
One of the brave young men who worked to publicize egyptian police abuse was Khaled Said. Last year, he posted a video online exposing abuse. Shortly there after, he was attacked and beaten to death - in public - by police who later dumped his body. The police claim he died because he swallowed a bag of drugs, but his head was basically beaten so badly it became deformed. Gee, I wonder what the real cause of death was?
This is life under Mubarak.
This is why the youth are on the street.
And this is why al sha'b yurid isqat al nizam - the people want the regime to fall!
AbuS (my egyptian born and raised husband) is currently working on putting together a history of the youth movement in Egypt in the last 10 years. Last night, he was reviewing internet videos about police abuse, and the young people who had been fighting to expose it.
The videos are perhaps the most disturbing things I have ever seen.
They were shot by the police, and show prisoners, most likely innocent, being sodomized by broom handles. The prisoners' screams and yells of pain have haunted me since I saw them last night, and I believe they will haunt me until the day I die.
These videos represent a tiny fraction, less than a minute part of 1% of the brutality the police have freely showered on the Egyptian people during Mubarak's reign. Every egyptian I have spoken to has a story of someone they know who has been taken by the police for no reason and abused, soley to perpetrate fear in the population.
One of the brave young men who worked to publicize egyptian police abuse was Khaled Said. Last year, he posted a video online exposing abuse. Shortly there after, he was attacked and beaten to death - in public - by police who later dumped his body. The police claim he died because he swallowed a bag of drugs, but his head was basically beaten so badly it became deformed. Gee, I wonder what the real cause of death was?
This is life under Mubarak.
This is why the youth are on the street.
And this is why al sha'b yurid isqat al nizam - the people want the regime to fall!
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I'm not defending Mubarak's regime. If anything, the positives of Egypt are due to the character of the people of Egypt more so than Mubarak could ever claim.
But -as I asked in another thread, please feel free to debate any specific points I posted, with sourced facts. Otherwise, it appears that you're simply dismissing information because you don't agree with it.
Wait, I take that back - you've already stated that you didn't even READ what I posted about Egypt.
Why such an avoidance of information, which is ABOUT the topic at hand and definitely pertinent to the conversation?
Alceste
Vagabond
Kathryn, all I asked for was a neutral source rather than a propaganda firm paid by Mubarak to make him look good. If you don't have one, just say so. Jeez. It's not like I can't find credible information on my own. I was assuming you wanted to add a new perspective to the debate. I'm only asking if you would be kind enough to provide it from a credible source.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Egypt has a stable economy in the Middle East and North Africa enjoying continuous growth, averaging 4%–5% in the past quarter-century. The economy embarked on various stages of development during which the public and private sectors played roles varying in relative importance.
Economy of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gross domestic product (GDP) per capita based on purchasing-power-parity (PPP) increased fourfold between 1981 and 2006, from US$ 1355 in 1981, to US$ 2525 in 1991, to US$ 3686 in 2001 and to an estimated US$ 4535 in 2006. Based on national currency, GDP per capita at constant 1999 prices increased from EGP 411 in 1981, to EGP 2098 in 1991, to EGP 5493 in 2001 and to EGP 8708 in 2006. Based on the current US$ prices, GDP per capita increased from US$ 587 in 1981, to US$ 869 in 1991, to US$ 1461 in 2001 and to an estimated US$ 1518 (which translates to less than US$ 130 per month) in 2006. According to the World Bank Country Classification, Egypt has been promoted from the low income category to lower middle income category.
There have been several favorable conditions that allowed the Central Bank of Egypt to accumulate net international reserves, which increased from US$ 20 billion in FY2005, to US$23 billion in FY2006, and to US$30 billion FY2007 contributing to growth in both reserve money and in broad money (M2).
Central Bank of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Egyptian information and communications sector has been growing significantly since it was separated from the transportation sector. The market for telecommunications market was officially deregulated since the beginning of 2006 according to the WTO agreement.
The Egyptian equity market is one of the most developed in the region with more than 633 listed companies. Market capitalization on the exchange doubled in 2005 from USD 47.2 billion to USD 93.5 billion, with turnover surging from USD 1.16 billion in January 2005 to USD 6 billion in January 2006.
Privatization in Egypt | Privatization program of Egypt | Egypt privatization
Significant improvement to the domestic economic environment increased investors' confidence in Egypt. The Cairo & Alexandria Stock Exchange is considered among the best ten emerging markets in the world. The changes to the policy also attracted increased levels of foreign direct investment in Egypt. According to the UN Conference on Trade and Development's World Investment Report, Egypt was ranked the second largest country in attracting foreign investment in Africa.
Poverty has a strong regional dimension in Egypt and concentrates in Upper Egypt region, both urban (18.6%) and rural( 39.1), while metropolitan areas are the least poor (5.7%).
Economy of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html
Egypt's infant mortality rate is 82nd in the world, which is better than some other countries in the area - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Western Sahara, Yemen, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Iran, Iraq, Tajikistan, Kyrgystan, and Algeria - But below that of Kazakhstan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Libya, Tunisia, Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Oman, Jordan, and Syria, and Saudi Arabia.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...Egypt&countryCode=eg®ionCode=af&rank=82#eg
Like I've said -REPEATEDLY - I am not defending Mubarak in any way. What I am trying to do is look at the situation from all angles - which includes looking at the negatives AND the positives of life in Egypt today.
In other words, putting some perspective on things. If we are going to support the overthrow of the Egyptian government - in word or in deed - we need to know what is being disgarded - and we need to know what is at risk.
How does life in Egypt compare to life in other countries in that part of the world? What's the trade off? How will the people of Egypt be impacted - short and long term? Are they going to be worse off or better off?
We can't determine this with any accuracy at all if we don't look at Egypt in context. We can't compare Egypt to a Western country - without comparing it to other countries in that region as well.
Economy of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gross domestic product (GDP) per capita based on purchasing-power-parity (PPP) increased fourfold between 1981 and 2006, from US$ 1355 in 1981, to US$ 2525 in 1991, to US$ 3686 in 2001 and to an estimated US$ 4535 in 2006. Based on national currency, GDP per capita at constant 1999 prices increased from EGP 411 in 1981, to EGP 2098 in 1991, to EGP 5493 in 2001 and to EGP 8708 in 2006. Based on the current US$ prices, GDP per capita increased from US$ 587 in 1981, to US$ 869 in 1991, to US$ 1461 in 2001 and to an estimated US$ 1518 (which translates to less than US$ 130 per month) in 2006. According to the World Bank Country Classification, Egypt has been promoted from the low income category to lower middle income category.
There have been several favorable conditions that allowed the Central Bank of Egypt to accumulate net international reserves, which increased from US$ 20 billion in FY2005, to US$23 billion in FY2006, and to US$30 billion FY2007 contributing to growth in both reserve money and in broad money (M2).
Central Bank of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Egyptian information and communications sector has been growing significantly since it was separated from the transportation sector. The market for telecommunications market was officially deregulated since the beginning of 2006 according to the WTO agreement.
The Egyptian equity market is one of the most developed in the region with more than 633 listed companies. Market capitalization on the exchange doubled in 2005 from USD 47.2 billion to USD 93.5 billion, with turnover surging from USD 1.16 billion in January 2005 to USD 6 billion in January 2006.
Privatization in Egypt | Privatization program of Egypt | Egypt privatization
Significant improvement to the domestic economic environment increased investors' confidence in Egypt. The Cairo & Alexandria Stock Exchange is considered among the best ten emerging markets in the world. The changes to the policy also attracted increased levels of foreign direct investment in Egypt. According to the UN Conference on Trade and Development's World Investment Report, Egypt was ranked the second largest country in attracting foreign investment in Africa.
Poverty has a strong regional dimension in Egypt and concentrates in Upper Egypt region, both urban (18.6%) and rural( 39.1), while metropolitan areas are the least poor (5.7%).
Economy of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html
Egypt's infant mortality rate is 82nd in the world, which is better than some other countries in the area - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Western Sahara, Yemen, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Iran, Iraq, Tajikistan, Kyrgystan, and Algeria - But below that of Kazakhstan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Libya, Tunisia, Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Oman, Jordan, and Syria, and Saudi Arabia.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...Egypt&countryCode=eg®ionCode=af&rank=82#eg
Like I've said -REPEATEDLY - I am not defending Mubarak in any way. What I am trying to do is look at the situation from all angles - which includes looking at the negatives AND the positives of life in Egypt today.
In other words, putting some perspective on things. If we are going to support the overthrow of the Egyptian government - in word or in deed - we need to know what is being disgarded - and we need to know what is at risk.
How does life in Egypt compare to life in other countries in that part of the world? What's the trade off? How will the people of Egypt be impacted - short and long term? Are they going to be worse off or better off?
We can't determine this with any accuracy at all if we don't look at Egypt in context. We can't compare Egypt to a Western country - without comparing it to other countries in that region as well.