Egyptian lawyer sues Netflix over Queen Cleopatra

[Debater Slayer]

I haven't seen the series, so I can't say if it is ideological or depicting history wrong. Is it?

If it is only the skin colour of the actress, then the hassle is ridiculous. That's what acting is, pretending to be what you aren't. In Shakespeare's time all actors were male, some depicting women. Othello was usually played by a white dude with blackface. John Wayne played Genghis Khan. Tilda Swindon played The Ancient One. Humans are playing Vulcans and Klingons.
So, a black actress playing Cleopatra - no problem.
A series which claims to have documentary character which depicts the Ptolemaians as Africans - severe historical misrepresentation.

I find the idea that only X actors can voice X characters to be insulting and as racist af.

And what about an actor who's biracial or multiracial, do they have take a DNA test to verify they're of a sufficient percentage to do the character? Should casting directors resurrect the brown bag test if they're not sure?

It's called "acting".
I've no problem with Phil Lamarr (black Ameristanian)
playing Samurai Jack (Japanese). Nor with Hank
Azaria (white Ameristanian) playing Apu (Indian)
or Nancy Cartwright playing Bart Simpson.
They did/do great work.

The problem is that there are no "black people" and "white people" it is all just a gradual variation. And racism is inherent in almost all populations. This is a racist lawsuit. And it is just a minor kerfuffle.

The controversy is not merely over the skin color of the lead actress. It is because of the larger context of promoting Afrocentric beliefs, which I touched on in post #6. The problem is the claim that ancient Egyptians were black and then, as an extension of that, suggesting that current Egyptians are merely descendants of "invaders" and have no connection to their past heritage despite evidence to the contrary.

I would have had no issue with this if the series weren't presented as a documentary, but because it is, it claims to be historically accurate to at least a considerable extent. As such, it is reasonable to expect it to take into account historical and genetic evidence about ancient Egyptians.

The lawsuit is more symbolic than anything; it is an act of protest against the shoehorning of American identity politics into another nation's history and heritage. It's important to keep in mind that the context in this situation is completely different from the racial politics of the US, especially because of the existence of Afrocentrism and its racially supremacist attempts to claim ancient Egyptian heritage as its own.

The lawsuit isn't racist unless it is racist to ask a foreign producer not to promote historically inaccurate and racially supremacist narratives about one's own country in a series presented as a documentary. You almost surely wouldn't see any controversy if, say, a Nubian character were depicted as black, because that would be entirely accurate. This isn't; it explicitly leans into Afrocentric rhetoric.

If anyone wants to fully understand the context and cultural issues surrounding this controversy, I strongly suggest reading about Afrocentrism in relation to the history of Egypt. It should explain why this has nothing to do with racism—even though some racist fringes try to capitalize on legitimate concerns to advance their agenda—and everything to do with an ideologically charged distortion of history, sometimes mixed with racially supremacist narratives.

 

[Estro Felino]

Skin color should be a minor consideration for perfection. Acting abilities are far more important. I know nothing about Jada Smith's abilities. Liz demonstrated her chops quite often. But I do not watch movies any longer so my lack of knowledge of Jada's abilities in no way implies that she does not have those same abilities herself.

The truth is that there were historians that reported the facts as a journalist would do nowadays.
There are others, like Plutarch who fantasized about the historical figures. Like in his work Parallel Lives.
He contributed to mythologize historical characters through rumors and anecdotes so that nowadays, characters like Cleopatra VII have an overblown importance. Despite the fact, that her predecessors like Ptolemy II did magnificent things. He built the library of Alexandria.
Yet there is this obsession with Cleopatra VII.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The known facts are that her Macedonian Greek family — the Ptolemaic lineage — intermarried with West Asian’s Seleucid dynasty and had been in Egypt for 300 years. Cleopatra was eight generations away from these Ptolemaic ancestors, making the chance of her being white somewhat unlikely. After 300 years, surely, we can safely say Cleopatra was Egyptian. She was no more Greek or Macedonian than Rita Wilson or Jennifer Aniston. Both are one generation from Greece.

Apparently, according to scientific facts, simply living in Africa turns you black.

The Boers have been in South Africa for 400 years, so I better not see any of them depicted as blond haired and blue eyed anymore. we need to bring them into the 21st century.

Imagine having Matt Damon playing one of them, it's an insult to Nelson Mandela's memory. Wesley Snipes would have made a far more realistic Francois Pienaar.

Doing the research, I realized what a political act it would be to see Cleopatra portrayed by a Black actress. For me, the idea that people had gotten it so incredibly wrong before — historically, from Theda Bara to Monica Bellucci, and recently, with Angelina Jolie and Gal Gadot in the running to play her — meant we had to get it even more right. The hunt was on to find the right performer to bring Cleopatra into the 21st century.


I'm wondering why she thinks a black person is more realistic than the "incredibly wrong" Gal Gadot or anyone else of Mediterranean appearance?

That article was just painful to read. It seems that some people really can't think of any issue outside an American-centric context, and that includes the assumption that Africans are black by default or that anyone who opposes casting black actors in unsuitable roles must be some kind of racist or regressive. Here we have a "progressive" producer lecturing people from an entirely different country and culture about how they should see themselves, offering unevidenced and ideologically motivated views on what one of their most prominent queens looked like, and brushing aside criticism in a self-righteous, condescending manner instead of listening respectfully and in good faith.

She's also doing all of this from her position as a producer in Hollywood with fame and wealth to her name, so maybe she should "check her privilege"? After all, I thought respecting other cultures and listening to their concerns was a core part of being progressive. She sure isn't living up to any of that right now.

 

[PureX]

We have a sculpture of Cleopatra:

I think the Greek heritage is clear.

Nothing says this is actually what she looked like, though.

 

[Revoltingest]

The controversy is not merely over the skin color of the lead actress. It is because of the larger context of promoting Afrocentric beliefs, which I touched on in post #6. The problem is the claim that ancient Egyptians were black and then, as an extension of that, suggesting that current Egyptians are merely descendants of "invaders" and have no connection to their past heritage despite evidence to the contrary.

Are they really claiming that modern Egyptians are invaders,
or is that inferred from it being a resulting consequence?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Are they really claiming that modern Egyptians are invaders,
or is that inferred from it being a resulting consequence?

It's usually a direct claim of Afrocentric ideology. For example:

Within the race debate, ancient Egypt has become a terrain contested by three mutually exclusive views:

• modern Egyptian: the ancient Egyptians are the same group of people as the modern Egyptians
• Afrocentric: the ancient Egyptians were black Africans, displaced by later movements of peoples, for example the Macedonian, Roman and Arab conquests
• Eurocentric: the ancient Egyptians are ancestral to modern Europe

Race in Ancient Egypt

www.ucl.ac.uk

This is a longer read, but it goes into more of the history around the tension between Afrocentrists and Egypt:

Egypt and the Afrocentrists: The latest round

Why did North Africans and Middle Easterners almost overnight go from being comrades-in-struggle to racial intruders in Africa and in African American cities?

africasacountry.com

 

[The Hammer]

We have a sculpture of Cleopatra:

I think the Greek heritage is clear.

This sculpture could have been made hundreds of years after her.

Look at the way we depict Jesus, vs his more likely look.

 

[The Hammer]

Egyptian lawyer sues Netflix over Queen Cleopatra - Egypt Independent

Egyptian lawyer Mahmoud al-Semary filed a case with the Public Prosecutor to shut down the Netflix platform in Egypt, following the trailer release of “Queen Cleopatra,” a new documentary depicting the historical figure as a black woman.

www.egyptindependent.com

QUEEN CLEOPATRA: Netflix Sued By Egyptian Lawyer For Blackwashing History – Greek City Times

An Egyptian lawyer has filed a case with the Public Prosecutor to close the Netflix platform after the trailer of “Queen Cleopatra" was released, which

greekcitytimes.com

I've heard of "whitewashing" history, but I've never heard of "blackwashing" history before now.





I've read that Cleopatra and the Ptolemies were of Greek origin, although they were in Egypt for centuries before Cleopatra was born. This other article (Inside The Cleopatra 'Race Controversy' — And Why Some Believe That She Was Black) examines the question, but the answer is that no one really knows.

I haven't had Netflix in years, not since they dropped The Rockford Files from their lineup. So, I have not seen this latest production about Cleopatra.

Could Cleopatra have been black? Does this Egyptian lawyer have a viable case? I'd be interested in hearing @Debater Slayer's take on this.

What do you think about this case?

Cleopatra has drawn a great deal of fascination from popular culture, although I wonder how much of it is legend and how much is actual history.

The Modern Racial Politics of Cleopatra | What's Happening | Denison University

Questions of race and identity are at the heart of a controversy over casting a new production of the famous Cleopatra. Classics has an answer.

denison.edu

"Beyond this chromatic debate are the arguments over whether Cleopatra was an ‘African’ queen, Egyptian (but not ‘African’), or ‘Greek’ (i.e. Macedonian) queen, as if these are mutually exclusive and genetically unique identities."

 

[Estro Felino]

Nothing says this is actually what she looked like, though.

There are countless descriptions in Latin and Greek literature and paintings in the Roman city of Pompeii.
As you know, Pompeii flourished by the time Cleopatra was alive.

May I know why you are doubting that she looked like that?
What's wrong with this marble sculpture?

 

[Estro Felino]

This sculpture could have been made hundreds of years after her.

Look at the way we depict Jesus, vs his more likely look.

What's wrong with this sculpture?
Roman sculpture was realistic.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's usually a direct claim of Afrocentric ideology. For example:

Race in Ancient Egypt

www.ucl.ac.uk

This is a longer read, but it goes into more of the history around the tension between Afrocentrists and Egypt:

Egypt and the Afrocentrists: The latest round

Why did North Africans and Middle Easterners almost overnight go from being comrades-in-struggle to racial intruders in Africa and in African American cities?

africasacountry.com

You've read your admittedly long link.
Have you found any quotes where
someone is specifically claiming that
modern Egyptians are invaders?

 

[Augustus]

That article was just painful to read. It seems that some people really can't think of any issue outside an American-centric context, and that includes the assumption that Africans are black by default or that anyone who opposes casting black actors in unsuitable roles must be some kind of racist or regressive. Here we have a "progressive" producer lecturing people from an entirely different country and culture about how they should see themselves, offering unevidenced and ideologically motivated views on what one of their most prominent queens looked like, and brushing aside criticism in a self-righteous, condescending manner instead of listening respectfully and in good faith.

She's also doing all of this from her position as a producer in Hollywood with fame and wealth to her name, so maybe she should "check her privilege"? After all, I thought respecting other cultures and listening to their concerns was a core part of being progressive. She sure isn't living up to any of that right now.

The arrogance and double standards are particularly galling.

It is very colonial to decide it is your job to "educate" people on how they should think about their own cultural heritage and get annoyed at them when they don't appreciate the benefit of your wisdom.

The best line was this:

"No amount of reasoning or reminders that Arab invasions had not yet happened in Cleopatra’s age seemed to stem the tide of ridiculous comments. Amir in his bedroom in Cairo wrote to me to earnestly appeal that “Cleopatra was Greek!” Oh, Lawd! Why would that be a good thing to you, Amir? You’re Egyptian."

Other than the condescension "Amir in his bedroom", what does she even mean with the complete non-sequitur "a good thing"? It makes no sense unless you think he is being fooled by some white supremacy false consciousness and she's here to educate him with facts.

Imagine if someone described King Canute as Chinese, were corrected that, actually, he was a Dane then said "Why would it be a good thing to you, Charles, you're English!"

It would have been even funnier if he had been in his bedroom in Alexandria though

In their ideological view "People of colour" are fungible, because diversity is monochromatic: white people and "diverse people" and foreign diverse people have the honour to be props in US culture wars. I mean, How can Amir in Egypt, be against Cleopatra being played by a black American when he is a Person of Colour too!


My favourite example of motivated blackwashing is this:

Stuart Jeffries: Was the consort of George III Britain's first black queen?

Stuart Jeffries: Queen Charlotte was the wife of George III and, like him, of German descent. But did she also have African ancestry?

www.theguardian.com

FIFTEEN generations ago she might have had a North African ancestor. So there is a *possibility* that she is 1/65536th North African, and North Africa is in Africa, therefore she is black.

It's the most egregious example of the "one drop" rule I've ever seen

 

[Heyo]

This sculpture could have been made hundreds of years after her.

"The Berlin Cleopatra, a Roman sculpture of Cleopatra VII wearing a royal diadem, mid-1st century BC (around the time of her visits to Rome in 46–44 BC), discovered in an Italian villa along the Via Appia. Altes Museum, Berlin, Germany" - File:Kleopatra-VII.-Altes-Museum-Berlin1.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

 

[PureX]

There are countless descriptions in Latin and Greek literature and paintings in the Roman city of Pompeii.
As you know, Pompeii flourished by the time Cleopatra was alive.

May I know why you are doubting that she looked like that?
What's wrong with this marble sculpture?

Politically inspired depictions of powerful or famous people tend to reflect the attitudes toward them, and by them, more than the reality of them.

Here is a full size ceramic sculpture of Micheal Jackson with his pet Bubbles by a very well known sculptor named Jeff Koons. Imagine finding this a couple thousand years hence and trying to grasp who Micheal Jackson "really" was.

 

[Estro Felino]

Politically inspired depictions of powerful or famous people tend to reflect the attitudes toward them, and by them, more than the reality of them.

We are speaking of an age where there was no photography.
The only way to immortalize a famous person was either painting or sculpture. I assure artists were asked to be as realistic as possible.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You've read your admittedly long link.
Have you found any quotes where
someone is specifically claiming that
modern Egyptians are invaders?

Here:

By the early 1970s, however, this Islam-friendly black nationalism was being challenged by an Afrocentrist movement that was staunchly anti-Arab and anti-Muslim. Islam, according to this narrative, had done as much damage, if not more to Africa, as Christianity had, and the Arabs were “white invaders” on African soil, akin to European settlers, who conquered the New World. In 1971 Chancellor Williams published The Destruction of African Civilization, which would emerge as one of the founding texts of the Afrocentrist movement. Williams described how since the time of pharaonic Egypt, Arabs had attempted to conquer Africa while Nubians and Ethiopians heroically resisted the white “Arab-Asian” effort to destroy the single black kingdom that originally extended from the shores of the Mediterranean to the source of the Nile. Molefi Asante would write, “The Arabs, with their jihads, or holy wars, were thorough in their destruction of much of the ancient [Egyptian] culture,” but fleeing Egyptian priests dispersed across the continent spreading Egyptian knowledge.

And this is just the article; there are many regular individuals like you and me who hold similar views.

It should be noted that calling modern Egyptians "invaders" wouldn't make much sense either way, though, since we were born in the country and demonstrably didn't invade it. Usually, you'll instead see claims that modern Egyptians are descendants of invaders or have no connection to ancient Egyptians and that the civilization belongs to black Africans. Then some also try to create guilt by association/ancestry.

 

[Estro Felino]

"The Berlin Cleopatra, a Roman sculpture of Cleopatra VII wearing a royal diadem, mid-1st century BC (around the time of her visits to Rome in 46–44 BC), discovered in an Italian villa along the Via Appia. Altes Museum, Berlin, Germany" - File:Kleopatra-VII.-Altes-Museum-Berlin1.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

It perfectly matches with a painting in Herculaneum with Cleopatra written below...so...

File:Posthumous painted portrait of Cleopatra VII of Egypt, from Herculaneum, Italy.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[PureX]

We are speaking of an age where there was no photography.
The only way to immortalize a famous person was either painting or sculpture. I assure artists were asked to be as realistic as possible.

No artist wanting to remain an artist was going to be "as realistic as possible".

 

[Estro Felino]

No artist wanting to remain an artist was going to be "as realistic as possible".

One question: I think that if the artist had wanted to portray an idealized and perfected version of the real Cleopatra, he would have made a tinier nose, wouldn't he?

 

[Debater Slayer]

The arrogance and double standards are particularly galling.

It is very colonial to decide it is your job to "educate" people on how they should think about their own cultural heritage and get annoyed at them when they don't appreciate the benefit of your wisdom.

The best line was this:

"No amount of reasoning or reminders that Arab invasions had not yet happened in Cleopatra’s age seemed to stem the tide of ridiculous comments. Amir in his bedroom in Cairo wrote to me to earnestly appeal that “Cleopatra was Greek!” Oh, Lawd! Why would that be a good thing to you, Amir? You’re Egyptian."

Other than the condescension "Amir in his bedroom", what does she even mean with the complete non-sequitur "a good thing"? It makes no sense unless you think he is being fooled by some white supremacy false consciousness and she's here to educate him with facts.

It also makes it sound like what people think is "good" or "bad" should have any bearing on their views concerning historical evidence. Even if Amir thought it was horrible that Cleopatra was Greek, what would that change? Would her origin suddenly change based on Amir's wishes? Or should he instead change his historically accurate views if he disliked the evidence?

I'm not sure whether the irony of the colonial mentality in the producer's condescending tirade was lost on her.

Imagine if someone described King Canute as Chinese, were corrected that, actually, he was a Dane then said "Why would it be a good thing to you, Charles, you're English!"

It would have been even funnier if he had been in his bedroom in Alexandria though

In their ideological view "People of colour" are fungible, because diversity is monochromatic: white people and "diverse people" and foreign diverse people have the honour to be props in US culture wars. I mean, How can Amir in Egypt, be against Cleopatra being played by a black American when he is a Person of Colour too!

This is exactly why I think the self-righteous dismissal of criticism of the show can be indicative of having cultural blinders on. The only context she seems to be considering is the American one, where white people are the majority group, black people are the minority, and everyone else is also a minority. She doesn't seem willing to consider that the context is entirely different in Egypt, an African, non-white country where it isn't politically incorrect to call out black supremacism or historical inaccuracies from non-white foreigners just as much as it isn't politically incorrect to call out white supremacism.

This simplistic and self-absorbed mentality collapses even further when one considers that the majority of the world's population are "people of color." They're not a minority in the vast majority of the world's countries, but who cares about anywhere outside the US, right?

My favourite example of motivated blackwashing is this:

Stuart Jeffries: Was the consort of George III Britain's first black queen?

Stuart Jeffries: Queen Charlotte was the wife of George III and, like him, of German descent. But did she also have African ancestry?

www.theguardian.com

FIFTEEN generations ago she might have had a North African ancestor. So there is a *possibility* that she is 1/65536th North African, and North Africa is in Africa, therefore she is black.

It's the most egregious example of the "one drop" rule I've ever seen

The saddest thing about this is that most of the producers and cast involved are talented, well-known people who could have used their talent and the available resources to make a show about an actual black queen or historical figure, but they didn't. They chose to lean into historical distortion and ideological pandering instead.