Egyptian lawyer sues Netflix over Queen Cleopatra

[Revoltingest]

"A" TV show doesn't have much effect. A dozen TV shows with the same message is propaganda. Ask the average TV viewer in the US how they see cops and their picture is basically that propagated by all the cop shows.

This is one TV show, not a dozen.
Of the many Cleopatra's I've seen, she's the 1st mixed race one.
The message from Hollywood & TV is...
She's white, & speaks English with a midwestern USA accent.

 

[Heyo]

If they had cast an Egyptian girl, like this one...of course nobody would have objected.
Because we are talking about ethnography here, and it's a matter of physical features that are compatible with a Greek woman living in Egypt.

Except that Cleopatra never was an "Egyptian girl", she was from an incestuous Greek dynasty which ruled over Egypt, basically a 300 year occupation and the rulers didn't mingle with the common folk.

 

[Estro Felino]

Except that Cleopatra never was an "Egyptian girl", she was from an incestuous Greek dynasty which ruled over Egypt, basically a 300 year occupation and the rulers didn't mingle with the common folk.

For instance I said that Cleopatra looked more like Nia Vardalos (who is Greek) so they should have cast her instead.
But, casting an Egyptian girl would have been the lesser of two evils.

In my opinion, Nia Vardalos would have been perfect.

 

[Callisto]

 

[Augustus]

Fear of a Black Cleopatra​

Dr. Haley argues that Cleopatra’s experience was part of a history of oppression of Black women. Reclaiming Cleopatra as Black and choosing to portray her now as a Black woman highlights this history — and is consistent with contemporary Egyptians or Greeks identifying with Cleopatra on the grounds of their own shared culture. Unlike racial assignments based on physical characteristics, which seek to distill people into rigid and recognizable categories, shared cultural claims can easily coexist.

To recognize Cleopatra as culturally Black is not to pretend that skin color is meaningless now — in the manner of recent figures like Rachel Dolezal and Jessica Krug, who claimed a cultural identity that was not theirs. In our society, race and racism are deeply entwined with skin color and other inherited physical traits. We cannot understand modern forms of oppression without understanding how phenotypical difference contributes to them, and we cannot legitimately claim a racial history without having lived it.

Cleopatra lived it. And it’s that experience, not her physical attributes, that should determine how we imagine her life.

Opinion | Fear of a Black Cleopatra

A new Netflix docuseries has reignited an old debate: Was Cleopatra Black? But a historian whose work informed the show says we’re thinking about her race all wrong.

www.nytimes.com

In case it gets paywalled, the webarchive version: https://archive.ph/Ikrtw



The arrogance, utter incoherence and rank double standards of these arguments are remarkable, especially from the kind of people that told you it's "cultural appropriation" to cook food from cultures that don't belong to you.

"Reclaiming" Cleopatra as black is right because she was "oppressed" (unlike say the average Egyptian people she ruled over). Anyone sufficiently oppressed can be considered black via "lived experience" because victimhood defines blackness. African Americans may therefore appropriate other people's culture to perpetuate their own mythology at the expense of other "oppressed peoples" and it is noble and enlightened. If the backwards hicks in these ****hole countries like Egypt don't like it then we will just have to educate them as to why they are perpetuating racism in their fervour for White Adjacency and should shut up, know their place and let the grown-up Americans with PhDs educate them about their real identity and the true meaning of their history.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Fear of a Black Cleopatra​

Dr. Haley argues that Cleopatra’s experience was part of a history of oppression of Black women. Reclaiming Cleopatra as Black and choosing to portray her now as a Black woman highlights this history — and is consistent with contemporary Egyptians or Greeks identifying with Cleopatra on the grounds of their own shared culture. Unlike racial assignments based on physical characteristics, which seek to distill people into rigid and recognizable categories, shared cultural claims can easily coexist.

To recognize Cleopatra as culturally Black is not to pretend that skin color is meaningless now — in the manner of recent figures like Rachel Dolezal and Jessica Krug, who claimed a cultural identity that was not theirs. In our society, race and racism are deeply entwined with skin color and other inherited physical traits. We cannot understand modern forms of oppression without understanding how phenotypical difference contributes to them, and we cannot legitimately claim a racial history without having lived it.

Cleopatra lived it. And it’s that experience, not her physical attributes, that should determine how we imagine her life.

Opinion | Fear of a Black Cleopatra

A new Netflix docuseries has reignited an old debate: Was Cleopatra Black? But a historian whose work informed the show says we’re thinking about her race all wrong.

www.nytimes.com

In case it gets paywalled, the webarchive version: https://archive.ph/Ikrtw



The arrogance, utter incoherence and rank double standards of these arguments are remarkable, especially from the kind of people that told you it's "cultural appropriation" to cook food from cultures that don't belong to you.

"Reclaiming" Cleopatra as black is right because she was "oppressed" (unlike say the average Egyptian people she ruled over). Anyone sufficiently oppressed can be considered black via "lived experience" because victimhood defines blackness. African Americans may therefore appropriate other people's culture to perpetuate their own mythology at the expense of other "oppressed peoples" and it is noble and enlightened. If the backwards hicks in these ****hole countries like Egypt don't like it then we will just have to educate them as to why they are perpetuating racism in their fervour for White Adjacency and should shut up, know their place and let the grown-up Americans with PhDs educate them about their real identity and the true meaning of their history.

Ever since this whole controversy started, I have seen a lot of flagrant, unbridled racism aimed at Egyptians and Arabs under the banner of "reclaiming" Egyptian history and culture. Can you imagine what could happen if some bellicose dictator took power in a neighboring African country someday and were convinced by this Afrocentric racism about "reclaiming" Egyptian heritage from current Egyptians, who are supposedly "invaders"? This kind of demonizing, false narrative has contributed to genocides and wars throughout history, where one group is scapegoated enough to distance it from most people's sympathy.

A lot of what we're seeing is the Afrocentric counterpart of white supremacist rhetoric, except that it is emboldened by being politically correct and "intellectual." The Western ideologues who are fanning these vitriolic flames seem to think they can do so with impunity just because black people are a minority in the West, and they're either unaware of or indifferent to the deeply harmful implications of their narratives.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This is now one of the lowest-rated series of all time on IMDb per user reviews. On Metacritic, both critics' and users' reception has also been markedly poor:

Queen Cleopatra (TV Mini Series 2023) ⭐ 1.2 | Documentary, Drama, History

45m | TV-14

imdb.com

Queen Cleopatra season 1

The second African Queens docu-drama series focuses on the life of Queen Cleopatra (Adele James).

www.metacritic.com

I'm relieved to see that the series has apparently failed both socially and critically. The intellectually unhinged way in which it has been presented had to be stopped, and the producers' and lead actress's blasé, condescending, and irresponsible dismissal of Egyptians' concerns about it made this vocal pushback even more imperative.

 

[Stevicus]

A lot of what we're seeing is the Afrocentric counterpart of white supremacist rhetoric, except that it is emboldened by being politically correct and "intellectual." The Western ideologues who are fanning these vitriolic flames seem to think they can do so with impunity just because black people are a minority in the West, and they're either unaware of or indifferent to the deeply harmful implications of their narratives.

This has been S.O.P. in America since at least the late 80s/early 90s. That's when the liberals sold out and the Civil Rights Movement became corporatized and sanitized. It's how political correctness got started. It was a wrong, misguided, ill-conceived approach, and after 30+ years of this nonsense, we're now starting to see reversals and setbacks in the causes of socioeconomic justice and human progress. The consequences of identity politics.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This has been S.O.P. in America since at least the late 80s/early 90s. That's when the liberals sold out and the Civil Rights Movement became corporatized and sanitized. It's how political correctness got started. It was a wrong, misguided, ill-conceived approach, and after 30+ years of this nonsense, we're now starting to see reversals and setbacks in the causes of socioeconomic justice and human progress. The consequences of identity politics.

In my opinion, any large-scale political movement or group, in this case some liberals in the US, that fails to take into consideration the effects of economic factors on cultural, social, and political attitudes is doomed to fail or lose significant ground sooner or later. Good luck selling any kind of political platform perceived to be based on abstract or academic concepts to a group drowning in poverty without giving them at least some hope of economic rectification.

A lot of populists know this, and they have repeatedly exploited it at multiple points in history. Some neoliberals keep overlooking economic impact and think they can win votes just by calling conservatives names and patronizing poorer voting bases who sometimes choose the populists mainly out of desperation.

 

[Stevicus]

In my opinion, any large-scale political movement or group, in this case some liberals in the US, that fails to take into consideration the effects of economic factors on cultural, social, and political attitudes is doomed to fail or lose significant ground sooner or later. Good luck selling any kind of political platform perceived to be based on abstract or academic concepts to a group drowning in poverty without giving them at least some hope of economic rectification.

A lot of populists know this, and they have repeatedly exploited it at multiple points in history. Some neoliberals keep overlooking economic impact and think they can win votes just by calling conservatives names and patronizing poorer voting bases who sometimes choose the populists mainly out of desperation.

Yes, this seems be one of the major flashpoints in the current political divide. Some liberals seem to have a blind side on issues like this.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ever since this whole controversy started, I have seen a lot of flagrant, unbridled racism aimed at Egyptians and Arabs under the banner of "reclaiming" Egyptian history and culture.

I wonder if I'm covered by this sweeping brush.
BTW, I don't generally see Egyptians or Arabs as a different race.
But there is much to legitimately criticize in their cultures & dominant religion.

Can you imagine what could happen if some bellicose dictator took power in a neighboring African country someday and were convinced by this Afrocentric racism about "reclaiming" Egyptian heritage from current Egyptians, who are supposedly "invaders"? This kind of demonizing, false narrative has contributed to genocides and wars throughout history, where one group is scapegoated enough to distance it from most people's sympathy.

A lot of what we're seeing is the Afrocentric counterpart of white supremacist rhetoric, except that it is emboldened by being politically correct and "intellectual." The Western ideologues who are fanning these vitriolic flames seem to think they can do so with impunity just because black people are a minority in the West, and they're either unaware of or indifferent to the deeply harmful implications of their narratives.

It appears to me that most westerners
believe Cleopatra was white. It appears
she prolly was, but I neither know nor care.

Disclaimer:
I am both racist & sexist.
Let only the sinless cast stones.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I wonder if I'm covered by this sweeping brush.

I didn't have any RF posts in mind when I posted that. I was thinking more of Afrocentric rhetoric I had seen elsewhere.

BTW, I don't generally see Egyptians or Arabs as a different race.

North Africans and Arabs are different ethnicities, although one can be both. I'm both because my ancestry includes people from both ethnicities.

But there is much to legitimately criticize in their cultures & dominant religion.

There are a lot of issues in the Middle East, but I see criticism as useful when it informs improvements, solutions, and sound policies. Sometimes distant criticism that doesn't address root causes (e.g., material conditions such as the economy, education, etc.) and instead boils down to "X culture is bad, but Y culture is better" becomes an exercise in supremacist moralizing.

Much of Sam Harris' criticism of the Muslim world, for example, falls within the latter category, especially since he has repeatedly stated that "Western culture" is superior to "Eastern culture" and significantly downplayed the root causes of these issues, instead ascribing all ills to religion.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Debater Slayer...
If you think US TV shows do wrong to misrepresent Cleopatra's race,
you should see what they do in "The Great". You should see how they
represent 18th century politics & court. I advise not taking is seriously.