• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Egyptian loanwords in the Torah

River Sea

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Egyptian loanwords in the Torah

Sadly this thread was closed at another forum, so lets continue here and show me how to have a discussion (I taken out where) so I'll just leave this unknown forum then.

Written by @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

egyptian-loanwords-in-the-torah

Please help me in understanding the trajectory of the Torah.

  1. The exodus took place at c. 1500 BCE Moses revealed the Torah. The Jews settled in Israel. Around 600 BCE they were exiled to Babylon. Sometime, thereafter they returned. I have read that the Torah was “lost” at this time. St Ezra found a copy in a temple in Jerusalem. This manuscript became the basis of the present-day Bible.
  2. ⁠Sometime after this, some Jews migrated to Egypt and settled in Alexandria in particular. This Hebrew bible was used by the Ptolemy to translate the Bible into Greek Septuagint.
  3. ⁠From 600 BCE to 900 CE, the Torah was carried mainly orally. Some scripts such as the Aleppo Codex are available.
  4. ⁠The present Masoretic text was codified around 900CE. The Aleppo and Leningrad Codex are after this date.
  5. Benjamin J. Noonan has found 0.64% Egyptian loanwords in the Hebrew Bible as a whole and 0.91% in the Torah.
  6. There are three points of connection between Egypt and Hebrew Bible. 1] Revelation at Sinai c. 1500 BCE. 2] Alexandria 600-300 BCE. 3] After Septuagint during transmission of Torah from Egypt to the Masoretic text.
  7. The question is at which of these three periods were the Egyptian loanwords borrowed into Hebrew.
    I shall be much thankful for your guidance.
 
Last edited:
Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
River Sea said:
Egyptian loanwords in the Torah

Sadly this thread was closed at another forum, so lets continue here and show me how to have a discussion

Written by @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

discourse.biologos.org

Egyptian loanwords in the Torah

Please help me in understanding the trajectory of the Torah. The exodus took place at c. 1500 BCE Moses revealed the Torah. The Jews settled in Israel. Around 600 BCE they were exiled to Babylon. Sometime, thereafter they returned. I have read that the Torah was “lost” at this time. St Ezra...
discourse.biologos.org discourse.biologos.org

Please help me in understanding the trajectory of the Torah.

  1. The exodus took place at c. 1500 BCE Moses revealed the Torah. The Jews settled in Israel. Around 600 BCE they were exiled to Babylon. Sometime, thereafter they returned. I have read that the Torah was “lost” at this time. St Ezra found a copy in a temple in Jerusalem. This manuscript became the basis of the present-day Bible.
  2. ⁠Sometime after this, some Jews migrated to Egypt and settled in Alexandria in particular. This Hebrew bible was used by the Ptolemy to translate the Bible into Greek Septuagint.
  3. ⁠From 600 BCE to 900 CE, the Torah was carried mainly orally. Some scripts such as the Aleppo Codex are available.
  4. ⁠The present Masoretic text was codified around 900CE. The Aleppo and Leningrad Codex are after this date.
  5. Benjamin J. Noonan has found 0.64% Egyptian loanwords in the Hebrew Bible as a whole and 0.91% in the Torah.
  6. There are three points of connection between Egypt and Hebrew Bible. 1] Revelation at Sinai c. 1500 BCE. 2] Alexandria 600-300 BCE. 3] After Septuagint during transmission of Torah from Egypt to the Masoretic text.
  7. The question is at which of these three periods were the Egyptian loanwords borrowed into Hebrew.
    I shall be much thankful for your guidance.
Click to expand...
One correction. At no 1, Jews settled in Israel at 1400 bce.
 
River Sea

River Sea

Well-Known Member
loanwords i'm not that skill at. i hope ok to write loanword. i don't know many loanwords.
 
Last edited:
River Sea

River Sea

Well-Known Member
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Thanks for explaining that the little c stands for circa. It means approximately; now I understand why it's acceptable to type 1500 because the little c means approximately. Thank you for explaining this to me.
 
River Sea

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Bharat Jhunjhunwala said:
Loanwords ok. At 1900.1500 bce or at 1400.1300 bce. That is the question.
Click to expand...
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala It would be 1400–1300 BC. There are KMT borrowed loanwords; do you know any borrowed KMT loanwords that we can explore?

Then, can you please explain why anyone uses the little c? When wanting to explore the exact dates,? Or is it planned to show exact dates later? So, to use extra steps in a language - how come? What reasons do people use little c, and how does that help to be approximate? Does taking extra steps help communicate? Because now we're using BC. Would using BC right away be more understanding and skip the little c? So avoid little c and use BC; would that help communicate? Because if everything is wrapped up into 1500 little c (approximate), now we have to do the extra steps to show BC

@Jayhawker Soule do you ever use the little c, to be approximate, and do you know any borrowed loan words from any languages?
 
River Sea

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
  1. Yes.
  2. Borrowed? No. Purloined? Yes.
Click to expand...
@Jayhawker Soule Can you give me an example of purloined, and how does this help with the progress of language?

@Jayhawker Soule @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

My understanding is that loanwords are a process by which languages become

So one would bring words from another language over to another language, and that word would become of that language, and that's what loanwords mean.

Examples of loanwords in the English language include café (from French café, which means "coffee"), bazaar (from Persian bāzār, which means "market"), and kindergarten (from German Kindergarten, which literally means "children's garden").

Loanword - Wikipedia
 
River Sea

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
And my understanding is that to "borrow" something is to take temporary possession with an intent to return it later.
Click to expand...
How come no one returns the words café bazaar kindergarten?

River Sea said:
Examples of loanwords in the English language include café (from French café, which means "coffee"), bazaar (from Persian bāzār, which means "market"), and kindergarten (from German Kindergarten, which literally means "children's garden").
Click to expand...
 
Tamino

Tamino

Active Member
Check out this source, it's has some valuable background information:

Ancient Egyptian Linguistic Heritage in Hebrew: New Evidence
By Letizia Cerqueglini
in: BABELAO 10-11 (2022), p. 325-333

It's available online for free.
 
River Sea

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Tamino said:
Check out this source, it's has some valuable background information:

Ancient Egyptian Linguistic Heritage in Hebrew: New Evidence
By Letizia Cerqueglini
in: BABELAO 10-11 (2022), p. 325-333

It's available online for free.
Click to expand...

www.academia.edu

Ancient Egyptian Linguistic Heritage in Hebrew: New Evidence

The Ancient Egyptian lexical heritage detected in Hebrew so far consists of approximately one hundred nouns (units of measures, raw materials, natural elements, technical tools, ritual instruments and procedures, among others) and some twenty
www.academia.edu

Quote from Letizia Cerqueglini "The Ancient Egyptian lexical heritage detected in Hebrew so far consists of approximately one hundred nouns (units of measures, raw materials, natural elements, technical tools, ritual instruments, and procedures, among others)."

Notice this from Google:

What are different types of measurements called?

The basic units of measure are: Standard unit of length: The U.S Standard System uses inch, foot, yard and mile. The Metric System commonly uses millimeter, centimeter, meter, and kilometer. Standard unit of weight: The U.S. Standard System uses ounces, pounds, and tons.

What did the KMT words use for measurements that was then a loanword in the Torah?

I yet need to read Letizia Cergueglini PDF more slowly

If I understand so far, so only units of measures. Maybe they use? For numbers of what? US uses 12. UK uses

I'll need to read her writing more.

Anyways she claims lots of loanwords

I'll try again:
one foot comprises 12 inches
KMT is what word and number for measurements then loanword to Torah?

I can research this.

I don't think Letizia Cergueglini PDF went that detail

What is KMT number for measurement, is it 12 then start over or what number? Then a loanword in Torah?

I understand I can research this too

Which I will.
 
Tamino

Tamino

Active Member
River Sea said:
What did the KMT words use for measurements that was then a loanword in the Torah?
Click to expand...
There's a couple of different ones, of course.
Fingers, palms, cubits for lengths, deben for weight, and as a standard of value (goods were appraised in their value as compared to a deben of silver or gold), standardized vessels for beer... I have dictionary with a comprehensive list (Hannig's "Wortschatz der Pharaonen in Sachgruppen"), if you want me to look up something specific. But I think you should probably check Cerqueglini's text first, as you said.
River Sea said:
If I understand so far, so only units of measures. Maybe they use? For numbers of what? US uses 12.
Click to expand...
Egypt had a decimal system. 10, 100, 1000 etc.
 
Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
Tamino said:
Check out this source, it's has some valuable background information:

Ancient Egyptian Linguistic Heritage in Hebrew: New Evidence
By Letizia Cerqueglini
in: BABELAO 10-11 (2022), p. 325-333

It's available online for fre
Click to expand...

Tamino said:
Noonan says about 0.62 percent Persian and Egyptian loanwords in Hebrew. Thus the time of contact would be similar.. less than a century. That means the loanwords may have been loaned in 14th to 13th c bce after the exodus. How do you understand this?
Click to expand...
 
Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
Noonan says about 0.62 percent Persian and Egyptian loanwords in Hebrew. Thus the time of contact would be similar.. less than a century. That means the loanwords may have been loaned in 14th to 13th c bce after the exodus. How do you understand this?
 
River Sea

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Tamino said:
Egypt had a decimal system. 10, 100, 1000 etc.
Click to expand...

by_Annette_Imhausen academia

www.academia.edu

Mathematics in Ancient Egypt: A Contextual History by Annette Imhausen

Mathematics in Ancient Egypt: A Contextual History by Annette Imhausen
www.academia.edu

@Tamino @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Quote from PDF by Annette_Imhausen
Finally, the largest of the Egyptian number symbols, representing 1,000,000, is the seated god
Heh
Heh was one of the eight primeval gods, supposed to carry the heaven under the earth

me @River Sea responds (keep in mind I could be wrong with all of this)

My remembering Heh. I thought Heh was 5. Letter Hebrew H
ה

Yud 1 Dalet 4 = Heh 5
Yud spiritual Dalet physical


KMT (Egypt) So how did Heh seated God also in (Abram) (Abraham), because the Hebrew letter "H" added the name Abraham? Heh (Hei) is the fifth letter of the Hebrew alphabet. ה

So KMT (Egypt) Heh seated god, while also Heh is the H in Abraham's name, and math Heh is in the god area. How did that happen? Yet different numbers. Either 1:4 or 1,000,000 is that the same math number because = god sit? = add letter H to Abram, that caused Abraham, did Abraham sit with god then? How come god sit for? What does sit mean? Rest?

Even though the KMT Egypt had the number as (largest of the Egyptian number symbols, representing 1,000,000, is the seated god Heh)

Is the highest in Hebrew 1:4 = 5? Can 1,000,000 = 5?

What does that mean seated god? and did Abraham rest sitting in God's area? Because is that what Heh means?

So if a person uses 'Heh math' to make something, either 1:4 or 1,000,000, would that then be a place to rest while sitting in God's area?

Yes, loanwords could also include math. If so, how come 'heh' has two different outcomes, either 1:4 = 5 or 1,000,000, yet means the same thing with God as God sits? Yud is spiritual, while Dalet is physical. Would that also sit in a god's resting place? Would Physical be sitting in the spiritual god's area then?

Before anyone wonders, look what happened when adding a letter to a name, how did that letter communicate through the years, and that wasn't forgotten how come?

How do people communicate?

How come the letter H has to have 1:4 How come the letter H shows both spiritual and physical while yet KMT has 1,000,000 as god sits?

I google search and
What does the letter H mean in the Bible?
GRACE of God
The letter H in Hebrew is a hei (ה) and is represented by the picture of an open hand, which literally means GRACE of God

So would 1,000,000 also mean Grace of God because God sits?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top