Egyptian Salafi extremists kill 4 Shiites celebrating Imam Mahdi birthday

[Monotheist 101]

Dont get me wrong I respect your beliefs and position, but I think this stance is more destructive than it is constructive..

It would mean ALL the scholars past have been dellusional in their study of the Quran.

 

[Aamer]

IMO if you truly had, like I have, there is no way that you can reach such an extreme conclusion..:yes:..unless your research was biased to begin with..on a side note How did you come across Quranist teachings? All by yourself or through one of the many Quranist advocates/scholars in Arizona?

I don't think following the Quran alone is an extreme conclusion at all. It's just a matter of how attached you are to the beliefs you were taught as a child. And for me, I didn't care what my community thought. I left my birth sect at an early age, much to my families disappointment (Sufi sect). I joined Sunni Islam. I was even a door knocking Tablieghi for five years. Then I read Quran and started seeing things clearly. It was on my own. I'm not a Submitter or Rashad Khalifa follower. I know many of them and they are good people. Far more open minded to my questions than those at the Sunni mosque. But I am not one of them. I follow God alone. Peace.

 

[Monotheist 101]

I don't think following the Quran alone is an extreme conclusion at all. It's just a matter of how attached you are to the beliefs you were taught as a child. And for me, I didn't care what my community thought. I left my birth sect at an early age, much to my families disappointment (Sufi sect). I joined Sunni Islam. I was even a door knocking Tablieghi for five years. Then I read Quran and started seeing things clearly. It was on my own. I'm not a Submitter or Rashad Khalifa follower. I know many of them and they are good people. Far more open minded to my questions than those at the Sunni mosque. But I am not one of them. I follow God alone. Peace.

I respect that. I just don't agree with disregarding ALL the Hadith

Peace

 

[Monotheist 101]

Ali ibn Abi Talib said, "The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said: 'If my Ummah (nation) bears fifteen traits, tribulation will befall it.' Someone asked, 'What are they, O Messenger of Allah?' He said, 'When any gain is shared out only among the rich, with no benefit to the poor; when a trust becomes a means of making a profit; when paying Zakat (required Charitable tax paid by Muslims) becomes a burden; when a man obeys his wife and disobeys his mother; and treats his friend kindly whereas he shuns his father; when voices are raised in the mosques; when the leader of a people is the worst among them; when people treat a man with respect because they fear some evil he may do; when much wine is drunk; when men wear silk; when female singers and musical instruments become popular;

when the last ones of this Ummah curse the first ones

- then let them expect a red wind, or the earth to swallow them, or to be transformed into animals.'" (Tirmizi)

 

[Shia Islam]

Monotheist 101
But after digging up a bit more and educating myself on the character of Ali [...] The man they cling to IMO is the perfect Muslim after Muhammad.

This means that he was right in his claim for the position of the prophet SAWA (Don’t claim that he did not claim his right. He did. You know that. Refer to al-Bukhari, to see how at least while Fatima a.s. was alive he did not pay allegiance to them).

And based on this, those who has taken his position were …………

Monotheist 101

Although I agree that all the Hadith shouldnt be accepted as Sahih (especially the weak Shia chains of narration)..

OK. Give me your opinion on this Shia Hadith:
Hadith of the Golden Chain

When Abu Al-Hasan Al-Rida (pbuh) arrived to Nisabour and wanted to leave to Al-Ma'moun, the narrators of Hadith gathered around him and said to him:" O son of the Messenger of Allah! Will you leave us without telling us a Hadith to learn from?" He was sitting in the howdah (Arabic for hawdaj) so he took his head out and said:

"
I heard my father, Mousa Bin Jaafar say:
I heard my father, Jaafar Bin Mohammad say:
I heard my father, Mohammad Bin Ali say:
I heard my father, Ali Bin Al-Hussein say:
I heard my father, Al-Hussein Bin Ali (pbut), say:
I heard my father, Ameer Al-Mo'mineen Ali Bin Abi Talib (pbuh) say:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) say:
I heard Jebra'eel (pbuh) say:"
I heard Allah say:

'There is no god but Allah' is my fort, so he who enters my fort shall be safe from my torment."
Then, when the caravan moved, he yelled to us:
" But by its conditions! And I am one of its conditions."

حديث السّلسلة الذّهبيّة:
لما وافى أبو الحسن الرضا (&#1593 نيسابور وأراد أن يرحل منها إلى المأمون، اجتمع إليه أصحاب الحديث فقالوا له: يا بن رسول الله، ترحل عنا ولا تحدثنا بحديث فنستفيده منك، وقد كان قعد في العمارية فأطلع رأسه وقال: سمعت أبي موسى بن جعفر يقول: سمعت أبي جعفر بن محمد يقول: سمعت أبي محمد بن علي يقول: سمعت أبي علي بن الحسين يقول: سمعت أبي الحسين بن علي يقول: سمعت أبي أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب (&#1593 يقول: سمعت رسول الله (&#1589 يقول: سمعت جبرئيل (&#1593 يقول: سمعت الله عز وجل يقول: لا إله إلا الله حصني، فمن دخل حصني أمن عذابي.
فلما مرت الراحلة نادانا: بشروطها! وأنا من شروطها.

 

[Aamer]

Dont get me wrong I respect your beliefs and position, but I think this stance is more destructive than it is constructive..

It would mean ALL the scholars past have been dellusional in their study of the Quran.

There are scholars of Catholicism too who have dedicated their life to the study of their religion and scriptures. It doesn't make them right. I'm not re-opening the "To Hadith or not to Hadith" debate. I'm just saying your logic is flawed in claiming "scholars of a particular sect or religion can't be wrong." Scholars, be it Sunni, Shia, Catholic, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu or whatever, are only looking at it from the point of view of their sect/religion. Do you think Sunni scholars in Saudi Arabia or Shia scholars in Iran or Catholic scholars in the Vatican are really encouraged to be critical thinkers and question the viewpoint of their sect? No. They are only taught to master the viewpoint of their sect without thinking independently. I'm sure you would agree with that.

 

[Monotheist 101]

There are scholars of Catholicism too who have dedicated their life to the study of their religion and scriptures. It doesn't make them right. I'm not re-opening the "To Hadith or not to Hadith" debate. I'm just saying your logic is flawed in claiming "scholars of a particular sect or religion can't be wrong." Scholars, be it Sunni, Shia, Catholic, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu or whatever, are only looking at it from the point of view of their sect/religion. Do you think Sunni scholars in Saudi Arabia or Shia scholars in Iran or Catholic scholars in the Vatican are really encouraged to be critical thinkers and question the viewpoint of their sect? No. They are only taught to master the viewpoint of their sect without thinking independently. I'm sure you would agree with that.

I didnt say scholars of a particular sect..just that a majority of scholars.. I dont want to get into the Hadith debate either.. but what I was trying to point out was..."Quran Alone" doesnt really work a 100%... You will still be relying on the Hadith(Sunni or Shia) to some extent..(Salat etc.).. So the Quran alone thing is flawed IMO... You can be "mostly Quran Monotheist", I just dont agree with how you guys highlight a few Hadith that you dont agree with and try to disregard ALL of it..

Peace

 

[Monotheist 101]

This means that he was right in his claim for the position of the prophet SAWA (Don’t claim that he did not claim his right. He did. You know that. Refer to al-Bukhari, to see how at least while Fatima a.s. was alive he did not pay allegiance to them).

Although I agree to some extent.. I donot believe that Ali would have wanted you to curse/slander the other Khalifas.. did he get involved in such things? I also donot agree with commemorating quarrels of Men that have passed centuries ago.. Allah knows everything, let him be the judge.. I also do not agree that we should be worried about who holds a higher rank with Allah.. it doesnt really matter what we think..that being said..I respect your right to believe and practice whatever...I just dont agree with a few aspects that garner hatred towards other sects..

OK. Give me your opinion on this Shia Hadith:
Hadith of the Golden Chain

I wasnt refering to the Shia Hadith of the "Golden Chain", I was refering to the weaker chains..anyhow I apologize for pointing out only Shia Hadith, I should have just said..the weaker chains

Peace

 

[Aamer]

I didnt say scholars of a particular sect..just that a majority of scholars.. I dont want to get into the Hadith debate either.. but what I was trying to point out was..."Quran Alone" doesnt really work a 100%... You will still be relying on the Hadith(Sunni or Shia) to some extent..(Salat etc.).. So the Quran alone thing is flawed IMO... You can be "mostly Quran Monotheist", I just dont agree with how you guys highlight a few Hadith that you dont agree with and try to disregard ALL of it..

Peace

You keep bringing up the "you need Hadith to pray Salat" card. Can I ask you... Which Hadith did you read to learn how to pray Salat? Can you show me one Hadith that teaches you step by step how to pray Salat? Look for it. You won't find it. I learned how to pray just like you... From other humans. I bet we both pray Salat a little different. Does that make one of us right and the other wrong? No. It's the intention that matters. Quran lists 5 criteria for praying Salat. As long as you fulfill those, you are ok. The details don't matter. I don't think on the day of judgment we will be told "I know you prayed 5 times a day but your right toe wasn't curled up properly... Off to the hellfire!" It's the intention and sincerity of worship that matter. God didn't leave out the details by accident. God doesn't do anything by accident. Every single thing God does or does not reveal is with a purpose. It's another test. Peace.

 

[Monotheist 101]

I learned how to pray just like you... From other humans

I consider that to be the Hadith/ Traditions of the Prophet...to some extent..

Incase you are looking for Hadith regarding Prayers... here are a few..Hadith The Book of Prayers (Kitab Al-Salat) from Sahih Muslim - صحيح مسلم :: Sahih Muslim Hadith - أحاديث صحيح مسلم ::

You have to admit that their is no such thing as Quran Alone Muslim...rather mostly Quran Muslim..which I am totally for ... You are fooling yourself and other when you think you are not relying on the Hadith at all...

It's the intention that matters. Quran lists 5 criteria for praying Salat. As long as you fulfill those, you are ok. The details don't matter. I don't think on the day of judgment we will be told "I know you prayed 5 times a day but your r.ight toe wasn't curled up properly..

I never disagreed with any of this.. All I'm trying to point out is the fallacy of questioning the Hadith sources and not that of the Quran..when it has been passed down by the same people.. I dont agree with slandering Abu Hurraira or Bukhari either..let them rest in peace..


P.S Where does it say you should pray 5 times a day in the Quran?

 

[Aamer]

We're just going in circles here so I'll stop after this post (for now). But I've never met one person in my entire life who opened up a Hadith book to learn how to pray Salat. And I've read the book from Sahih Muslim you put the link up for. It doesn't tell you step by step how to pray Salat. And even if you were to learn from Sahih Hadith books, there are so many contradictions on how the Prophet prayed Salat. Truth is, nobody knows exactly how he prayed. If we did, we would all be praying the same way. But go into any mosque in a mixed society and you'll see many different variations of Salat in the same Jamaat. Because Salat doesn't come from Hadith. Salat was around a lot longer. And there are many accounts of Prophet Muhammad praying many different ways. Even of him combing prayers without danger of attack and not traveling. So there is absolutely no solid conclusion from Hadith. Ask any Sunni scholar if it's Fard to say Salaam to your right and left to end Salat. He will tell you no. There is no uniform way to pray Salat through Hadith. Learning to pray Salat does not come from Hadith. It's been passed down through generations and as Muslims spread to different parts of the Earth, variations continued to occur. It doesn't make one party right and the other wrong. Anyways, let's agree to disagree. Salaam.

 

[Aamer]

P.P.S. It doesn't say 5 times Salat in Quran. I told you in a previous post, 3 times are mentioned by name (Fajr, Wusta, Isha). But five is better than three. Six is better than five. I was just giving an example because most Muslims adhere to five a day.

 

[Shia Islam]

Tonight is the first anniversary (according to the Islamic Calendar) of the martyrdom of Shaikh Hasan Shehata...

May Allah raise his status in paradise with his imams the prophet SAAW and his household...

And may Allah show us his revenge from those who carried out these vicious crimes against humanity, and their imams; Yazid and the rest...