Elective Disease

[Revoltingest]

You've heard of "elective procedure", ie, one that isn't an emergency,
so it can be scheduled. This includes things like boob jobs, liposuction.
Anti-vaxers have chosen to eschew protection against Covid 19 infections
that become severe enuf to require hospitalization. Should this be
treated as a choice to get deathly sick, ie, "elective disease"?

In Michiganistan, our hospitals are filled & stressed with unvaccinated
people suffering from severe Covid 19 infections. (80% unvaxed vs
20% vaccinated in one hospital).
https://www.wxyz.com/news/coronavir...ls-across-michigan-dealing-4th-covid-19-surge
These patients are over-working staff, & preventing others
from getting health care. I propose for anti-vaxers....
- Higher health insurance charges.
- Lower priority for hospital bed.
(One could say "they already made their own bed...now lie in it".)

 

[Quetzal]

You've heard of "elective procedure", ie, one that isn't an emergency,
so it can be scheduled. This includes things like boob jobs, liposuction.
Anti-vaxers have chosen to eschew protection against Covid 19 infections
that become severe enuf to require hospitalization. Should this be
treated as a choice to get deathly sick, ie, "elective disease"?

In Michiganistan, our hospitals are filled & stressed with unvaccinated
people suffering from severe Covid 19 infections. (80% unvaxed vs
20% vaccinated in one hospital).
https://www.wxyz.com/news/coronavir...ls-across-michigan-dealing-4th-covid-19-surge
These patients are over-working staff, & preventing others
from getting health care. I propose for anti-vaxers....
- Higher health insurance charges.
- Lower priority for hospital bed.
(One could say "they already made their own bed...now lie in it".)

This is tricky and I don't have a good answer. As people, they deserve care. However, I am torn because since they are taking up so many beds, other cases have to be re-routed or dropped entirely, some have led to severe consequences in my area.

On the other hand, there is a resentful part of me that thinks they have earned it. They had their chance, multiple times, to get in front of it and chose not to. I never wish ill will on anyone, but if there was ever a case of 'I told you so, now deal with it', this would be it.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is tricky and I don't have a good answer. As people, they deserve care. However, I am torn because since they are taking up so many beds, other cases have to be re-routed or dropped entirely, some have led to severe consequences in my area.

On the other hand, there is a resentful part of me that thinks they have earned it. They had their chance, multiple times, to get in front of it and chose not to. I never wish ill will on anyone, but if there was ever a case of 'I told you so, now deal with it', this would be it.

I have a storage tenant who is a real nasty piece of work.
Bigoted, dishonest, deadbeat about to be evicted.
He's an anti-vaxer.
He just died of Covid 19.
No tears were shed.

 

[Quetzal]

I have a storage tenant who is a real nasty piece of work.
Bigoted, dishonest, deadbeat about to be evicted.
He's an anti-vaxer.
He just died of Covid 19.
No tears were shed.

Similarly, I have yet to experience negative emotions to anti-vaxer deaths.

 

[Revoltingest]

Similarly, I have yet to experience negative emotions to anti-vaxer deaths.

Of course, we're not gloating.
(Look, mods...we're not gloating.)

 

[Debater Slayer]

Similarly, I have yet to experience negative emotions to anti-vaxer deaths.

My impression is that a lot of anti-vaxxers are misled by misinformation rather than having malicious intentions themselves. In those cases, I definitely find their death or severe illness tragic because it is so preventable.

I have family members who fall within the above category, so I don't look apathetically at most anti-vaxxers' deaths. I wouldn't find it any less difficult to lose them just because they were anti-vaxxers.

 

[Revoltingest]

My impression is that a lot of anti-vaxxers are misled by misinformation rather than having malicious intentions themselves. In those cases, I definitely find their death or severe illness tragic because it is so preventable.

I have family members who fall within the above category, so I don't look apathetically at most anti-vaxxers' deaths. I wouldn't find it any less difficult to lose them just because they were anti-vaxxers.

I'm empathy challenged to begin with.
What little I have, I'll reserve for responsible
people who don't harm others.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm empathy challenged to begin with.
What little I have, I'll reserve for responsible
people who don't harm others.

It's entirely possible to be responsible but misled, but I can also see where frustration at certain attitudes of some anti-vaxxers is coming from. Some do have a genuinely careless attitude toward others; I just don't think they represent all anti-vaxxers, such as my family.

Humans are very complex sometimes.

 

[Quetzal]

My impression is that a lot of anti-vaxxers are misled by misinformation rather than having malicious intentions themselves. In those cases, I definitely find their death or severe illness tragic because it is so preventable.

I have family members who fall within the above category, so I don't look apathetically at most anti-vaxxers' deaths. I wouldn't find it any less difficult to lose them just because they were anti-vaxxers.

I understand your perspective. However, respectively, how much more 'information' needs to be present? What else should we do to try to reach them? We produced a vaccine in record time and that should have been the end of it. And yet, here we are almost a year later with surge after surge after surge. And for what? Misinformation? I am finding that harder to accept as time goes on. Again, no malice intended.

 

[Quetzal]

Of course, we're not gloating.
(Look, mods...we're not gloating.)

I think I should be clear because it can be seen as wishing harm on others and that isn't the case. I am just unsure how we should divide hospital resources if we have to choose between an antivaxxer or a gun shot victim in the ER. (I am sure this is a fallacy but im just using it as an example)

 

[pearl]

(One could say "they already made their own bed...now lie in it".)

Along with those who choose to smoke, drink in excess, the obese, women with no right to abortion etc.?
The loved ones these anti-vaxxers always plead for others to get vaccinated.

 

[Lain]

You've heard of "elective procedure", ie, one that isn't an emergency,
so it can be scheduled. This includes things like boob jobs, liposuction.
Anti-vaxers have chosen to eschew protection against Covid 19 infections
that become severe enuf to require hospitalization. Should this be
treated as a choice to get deathly sick, ie, "elective disease"?

In Michiganistan, our hospitals are filled & stressed with unvaccinated
people suffering from severe Covid 19 infections. (80% unvaxed vs
20% vaccinated in one hospital).
https://www.wxyz.com/news/coronavir...ls-across-michigan-dealing-4th-covid-19-surge
These patients are over-working staff, & preventing others
from getting health care. I propose for anti-vaxers....
- Higher health insurance charges.
- Lower priority for hospital bed.
(One could say "they already made their own bed...now lie in it".)

People do all kinds of things which cause them to get sick and need to rely on others and yet they should still be treated. I do not think anything special should happen with them.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's entirely possible to be responsible but misled, but I can also see where frustration at certain attitudes of some anti-vaxxers is coming from. Some do have a genuinely careless attitude toward others; I just don't think they represent all anti-vaxxers, such as my family.

Humans are very complex sometimes.

There are always reasons that people do bad things.
Ignorance, genetics, bad upbringing, mean spirited, etc.
Still, we are each what we do in this world.

 

[metis]

Here in Michigan, 89% of the covid deaths are from those who have refused to take any of the vaccines, and it's particular strong in northern Michigan and also the western part of the state. Also, we seeing some deaths of those who had covid once but that the antibodies weren't in enough supply to help them later.

Also, more information came out within the last two weeks that clearly shows that masking definitely saves lives, which compared school districts that mandated them versus those that didn't.

 

[Revoltingest]

Along with those who choose to smoke, drink in excess, the obese, women with no right to abortion etc.?
The loved ones these anti-vaxxers always plead for others to get vaccinated.

Some things involve more choice than others,
eg, smoking involves addiction. Vaccination
is a choice more easily made.

 

[Revoltingest]

People do all kinds of things which cause them to get sick and need to rely on others and yet they should still be treated. I do not think anything special should happen with them.

A problem now is that anti-vaxers are overwhelming
hospitals, & causing service delays to others. Their
choice also imposes expense & risk upon others.
This should be disincentivized.

 

[Lain]

A problem now is that anti-vaxers are overwhelming
hospitals, & causing service delays to others. Their
choice also imposes expense & risk upon others.

Indeed they may very well be. Being imposed upon is the human condition. Caring for others even if one thinks they caused their own problems is also the human behavior in my opinion.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Similarly, I have yet to experience negative emotions to anti-vaxer deaths.

I am not sure if recognition of someone acting against their own interest and that of others is a negative emotion. But it is true that actions have consequences and those consequences are widely known regarding vaccination and disease. I feel bad that they are medically imperiled, but that peril is hardly a surprise.

 

[exchemist]

I think one needs to be a bit careful before labelling every unvaccinated person an "antivaxxer". Studies in the UK into what they term "vaccine hesitancy" reveal a number of social and cultural factors that influence the likelihood that people will take up the offer of the vaccine.

An interesting correlation, observable by contrasting Eastern and Western Europe, is that take-up is much higher in countries where the state is trusted to act with goodwill on behalf of its citizens. Basically, if you've had years of communist party rule, feeding you lies, you are more sceptical than in, say, the UK where the NHS has been widely trusted for 70 years.

Within the UK, take up among the ethnic minorities tends to be lower, due to less of a history of being able to trust the government in groups that immigrated recently - and also maybe some unpleasant history of black people being experimented upon in the past (E.g. the notorious US syphilis trial). In some communities there have been unfounded rumours of pork or beef products being use in the vaccine and even, among the crazy end of the Catholic community, some eyeball-swivelling stuff about aborted foetuses. So now, there has been a lot of effort put into reaching these communities, by analysing what the obstacles are and working with opinion leaders that they trust. This is bearing fruit.

One thing that is very clear is that most of the vaccine-hesitant are not committed anti-vaxxers. So I think we should generally give them the benefit of the doubt and treat them when they fall ill just the same as everyone else.

 

[Twilight Hue]

People do all kinds of things which cause them to get sick and need to rely on others and yet they should still be treated. I do not think anything special should happen with them.

I agree. Having a selective health system is the cut of same cloth that fueled other forms of discrimination and bias.