Elective Disease

[Lain]

Let's change the framing a bit with a hypothetical exercise. There are three individuals:

• An individual with a gun shot wound to the chest.
• An unvaccinated individual suffering from COVID complications.
• A drunk man found in the bushes outside of a local Olive Garden

You get to choose who gets the one remaining hospital bed in the ICU. Who would you choose?

Gun wound guy wins out.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I understand your perspective. However, respectively, how much more 'information' needs to be present? What else should we do to try to reach them? We produced a vaccine in record time and that should have been the end of it. And yet, here we are almost a year later with surge after surge after surge. And for what? Misinformation? I am finding that harder to accept as time goes on. Again, no malice intended.

I have no answer to that, and I don't know whether there's ever a magic amount of information that can change people's minds. It may well depend on each person's situation and their background, too.

Furthermore, we have to keep in mind that in countries with corrupt governments or historically discriminatory practices, a lot of people don't feel safe trusting government recommendations or mandates. This is understandable, even if the recommendations about public health make sense in this situation.

There are many factors I would look at instead of deciding that anti-vaxxers don't deserve empathy when they die or become severely sick. I don't believe in free will either, which makes it much harder to lose empathy toward someone when they suffer or die due to a mistaken belief.

 

[Quetzal]

I would not attempt to offer one. I am simply open minded enough to listen before judging them.

Do you think that individuals abstaining from the vaccine has made the containment and elimination of the virus easier?

 

[We Never Know]

You're ignoring how "few" refers to relative fractions.
But I sense this is intentional.
If you want to continue with me, please respond thoughtfully.

Let me ask you a serious question...
I hope and if I prayed, I would pray that years down the road there are no serious side effects from the vaccines...
But here's a hypothetical question for you, if there were to come bad side effects from the vaccine, should those that chose to get the vaccine take a back seat to everyone else?

 

[Quetzal]

I have no answer to that, and I don't know whether there's ever a magic amount of information that can change people's minds.

Do you think willful ignorance should be excused if it means endangering other people? (This question feels sharp/harsh, but I assure you, it isn't intended to be.)

 

[Revoltingest]

Let me ask you a serious question...
I hope and if I prayed, I would pray that years down the road there are no serious side effects from the vaccines...
But here's a hypothetical question for you, if there were to come bad side effects fromhe vaccine, should those that chose to get the vaccine take a back seat to everyone else?

But that's not the situation.
This thread deals with the reality we face.
I suggest you start a new thread if that really interests you.

 

[We Never Know]

I understand your perspective. However, respectively, how much more 'information' needs to be present? What else should we do to try to reach them? We produced a vaccine in record time and that should have been the end of it. And yet, here we are almost a year later with surge after surge after surge. And for what? Misinformation? I am finding that harder to accept as time goes on. Again, no malice intended.

With the varients, is it unvaccinated people or vaccinated people spreading them from Country to country?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you think willful ignorance should be excused if it means endangering other people? (This question feels sharp/harsh, but I assure you, it isn't intended to be.)

What do you mean by "excused"? As in ethically? And how do we determine that ignorance is "willful" in the first place and not a result of other factors?

The idea of "willful ignorance" is nebulous because so many people fail to be convinced by certain information or arguments even if they try to be. This ties into my point that we have no free will; we can't press a button and simply change our beliefs. Even the tendency to be open to new evidence and information is not something we voluntarily have; whether or not we inherently have that tendency is basically down to a lottery decided by nature and biology.

 

[Quetzal]

With the varients, is it unvaccinated people or vaccinated people spreading them from Country to country?

My knowledge of biology is fuzzy. But in order to spread, one must be infected. Vaccinated people have a lower rate of infection. My ignorant conclusion would be that vaccinated people have a lower likelihood of spreading variants.

 

[Revoltingest]

My knowledge of biology is fuzzy. But in order to spread, one must be infected. Vaccinated people have a lower rate of infection. My ignorant conclusion would be that vaccinated people have a lower likelihood of spreading variants.

Note that "rate of infection" would also include the duration
of infection. Vaxed people clear the infection more quickly,
so they're infectious for a shorter period.

 

[Quetzal]

What do you mean by "excused"? As in ethically? And how do we determine that ignorance is "willful" in the first place and not a result of other factors?

The idea of "willful ignorance" is nebulous because so many people fail to be convinced by certain information or arguments even if they try to be. This ties into my point that we have no free will; we can't press a button and simply change our beliefs. Even the tendency to be open to new evidence and information is not something we voluntarily have; whether or not we inherently have that tendency is basically down to a lottery decided by nature and biology.

I think we have a fundamental difference in how we view the world and that shapes how we approach this problem. I believe people can change their beliefs. At the beginning of this thread, I believed that people with COVID should be withheld medical treatment. Now, I believe a first come, first serve basis is more appropriate.

 

[We Never Know]

But that's not the situation.
This thread deals with the reality we face.
I suggest you start a new thread if that really interests you.

That is actually an unknown at the presnt.

But here's some reality...
If John Doe doesn't get vaccinated he is 100% protected from any vaccine side effect if any were to occur in the future.(can you say the same?)
At the same time being unvaccinated he is roughly 99.6% protected against dying from covid.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think we have a fundamental difference in how we view the world and that shapes how we approach this problem. I believe people can change their beliefs. At the beginning of this thread, I believed that people with COVID should be withheld medical treatment. Now, I believe a first come, first serve basis is more appropriate.

I believe people can change their beliefs too, and I have done that many times over the years. I just think that for many people, it's not something as easy or straightforward as encountering certain information and changing their beliefs accordingly. A lot of other things factor into that, some of which aren't up to individual choice.

I lean toward the belief that severity of cases is the best metric to decide priority for treatment. Someone with a medical emergency shouldn't be turned away just because they came into the hospital after someone with COVID if the latter has mild symptoms and can survive without staying in.

 

[Quetzal]

That is actually an unknown at the presnt.

But here's some reality...
If John Doe doesn't get vaccinated he is 100% protected from any vaccine side effect if any were to occur in the future.(can you say the same?)
At the same time being unvaccinated he is roughly 99.6% protected against dying from covid.

Respectfully, these 'statistics' are not presented in good faith and demand a conclusion that isn't accurate.

 

[We Never Know]

My knowledge of biology is fuzzy. But in order to spread, one must be infected. Vaccinated people have a lower rate of infection. My ignorant conclusion would be that vaccinated people have a lower likelihood of spreading variants.

But if the unvaccinated are not permitted to travel, who does that leave that can travel and from country to country and spread the variants?

 

[Quetzal]

I lean toward the belief that severity of cases is the best metric to decide priority for treatment. Someone with a medical emergency shouldn't be turned away just because they came into the hospital after someone with COVID if the latter has mild symptoms and can survive without staying in.

We are in agreement.

 

[Quetzal]

But if the unvaccinated are not permitted to travel, who does that leave that can travel and from country to country and spread the variants?

If we want to get into the weeds here, we need to be specific about which countries, the paths taken, and what the various mandates are. That is not something I am interested in doing tonight.

 

[We Never Know]

Respectfully, these 'statistics' are not presented in good faith and demand a conclusion that isn't accurate.

Ok....
What % does the average person have of dying from covid?

What % does any unvaccinated person have of suffering side effects from the vaccine?

 

[Revoltingest]

That is actually an unknown at the presnt.

But here's some reality...
If John Doe doesn't get vaccinated he is 100% protected from any vaccine side effect if any were to occur in the future.(can you say the same?)
At the same time being unvaccinated he is roughly 99.6% protected against dying from covid.

I can say for sure that the unvaxed people I know
knew who died will not be coming back to life.
The vaccinated people I know are all doing fine.
This is known.
This thread is about the reality we see.
Not the worst case you imagine.

 

[Quetzal]

What % does the average person have of dying from covid?

That depends. In order to get an accurate number we have to drill to the level of the individual. That is challenging to do.

What % does any unvaccinated person have of suffering side effects from the vaccine?

0 (based on current knowledge and understanding)