Elective surgery is banned unless... it is for abortion

[McBell]

I have a serious issue with those considering "natural" as being explicitly non-human.

Fair enough.
However, who has made that claim?

...Viewing apes, and all other mammals as natural, but not human activities as being natural is illogical. As humans, we have naturally evolved to be where we are right now with all of our dilemmas, which we deal with together as a species. This is natural. And what the majority rules, over time, will be the natural result of nature.

We truly are the diamonds of life in this respect. That we pave the way of nature on a level unique to our species. We are nature magnified. Literally -- We are the magnifying glass of life itself.

Here once again you are arguing against your claim that abortion, a human behaviour, is not natural.

 

[Cooky]

Seems you are being inconsistent.
If human behavior is natural and abortion is included in human behaviour it too is natural, right?
But here in this thread you claim abortion is not natural.{post #33}

So it appears to me you are now arguing against your own claim.

It is a dichotomy in logic. I could only counter that by saying that through time and human evolution, we will come to new outcomes later. And then, at that time, what's *truly* natural will have occured, and will remain engraved forever in our constant evolutionary process.

 

[McBell]

It is a dichotomy in logic. I could only counter that by saying that through time and human evolution, we will come to new outcomes later. And then, at that time, what's *truly* natural will have occured, and will remain engraved forever in our constant evolutionary process.

what is the difference between natural and *truly* natural?


So far it appears you differentiate between natural and not natural based on what you personally see as positive (natural) and negative (not natural).

 

[Cooky]

I guess I don't want abortion to be included in our human nature. I don't want it included in our evolution.

 

[Cooky]

what is the difference between natural and *truly* natural?


So far it appears you differentiate between natural and not natural based on what you personally see as positive (natural) and negative (not natural).

What I mean is that during time, we come across trials and stumbling blocks. And this is where we are now, arguing about abortion. And as long as there is argument, our evolution in this aspect it is open to change.

*true* nature would include a closed case on abortion, where we all move on, whether it be included or excluded in our evolutionary makeup forever.

...We're far from that now. But I predict the correct path is based on what's positive and not negative in how we feel about abortion. I predict that people ultimately view abortion as negative. And ultimately, that means s it will be unnatural and should be excluded from our evolution at some point.

 

[McBell]

What I mean is that during time, we come across trials and stumbling blocks. And this is where we are now, arguing about abortion. And as long as there is argument, our evolution in this aspect it is open to change.

*true* nature would include a closed case on abortion, where we all move on, whether it be included or excluded in our evolutionary makeup forever.

There will always be those who argue.
If *true* nature is complete agreement, it will never exist.

 

[columbus]

I guess I don't want abortion to be included in our human nature. I don't want it included in our evolution.

I don't want it included in modern, unnatural, human behavior. But it is.

Because God still keeps making humans the same old natural way. With the instincts that resulted in our ancestors reproducing most successfully. We're still inclined towards the behaviours that worked for our ancestors.

Our immoral impulses tend to be the God given natural behavior we're born with. Obviously, there is no Almighty God who cares, or things would be different. We'd be smarter. We'd understand why immoral behavior is destructive and freely choose against it.

But there is no such Almighty God. Obviously.
Tom

 

[Cooky]

There will always be those who argue.
If *true* nature is complete agreement, it will never exist.

Over time, our minds will evolve. Just like how we're almost all unilaterally opposed to slavery right now, where as a hundred years ago, we were not.

...There was a big fight over it, and that fight altered our nature forever. And ultimately, what was more 'positive" won in the end... LOVE won.

Our nature gravitates toward love. So abortion must, and will lose eventually except under dire conditions where another life is in danger. But that will be a tragedy.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

In my view, it's an intrusion on life by modern technologies. Something unnatural -so I have no interest in supporting it in any way. But that's just my opinion on the matter.

Isn't any medical procedure using modern knowledge and technology going to fall under your view? Cancer treatment often involves the intrusive use of modern technology. Treating the Covid-19 virus requires it. It would all be unnatural by your definition.

 

[Cooky]

I don't want it included in modern, unnatural, human behavior. But it is.

Because God still keeps making humans the same old natural way. With the instincts that resulted in our ancestors reproducing most successfully. We're still inclined towards the behaviours that worked for our ancestors.

Our immoral impulses tend to be the God given natural behavior we're born with. Obviously, there is no Almighty God who cares, or things would be different. We'd be smarter. We'd understand why immoral behavior is destructive and freely choose against it.

But there is no such Almighty God. Obviously.
Tom

You have to realize we're over 3 billion years old. Change takes time. And we just play our part in the fraction of a second that we're here.

After that who knows... Life never made sense to begin with.

 

[Cooky]

Isn't any medical procedure using modern knowledge and technology going to fall under your view? Cancer treatment often involves the intrusive use of modern technology. Treating the Covid-19 virus requires it. It would all be unnatural by your definition.

Yes, but what's positive and negative plays a major role in what's natural in my view... Ultimately... In the end... After it's all said and done...

 

[Cooky]

I know... Viewing time this way is dizzying.

 

[McBell]

Yes, but what's positive and negative plays a major role in what's natural in my view... Ultimately... In the end... After it's all said and done...

So basically, in your view, what you like is natural and what you dislike is not natural?

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, but what's positive and negative plays a major role in what's natural in my view... Ultimately... In the end... After it's all said and done...

Your arguments have difficulties.
But I have a solution!
Applying Occam's Razor, I hereby pare away
the natural vs unnatural question as irrelevant.
Dang....that was easy.

 

[Cooky]

So basically, in your view, what you like is natural and what you dislike is not natural?

No everything I do is natural *in this time* because I am a result of everything before me, where ongoing problems already exist, yet others resolved. But what naturally occurs in the future will depend on what happens today... And I believe that in general, positivity and love prevail over long, extended periods of time. Through generations and trials over billions of years, and we are just fulfilling our role.

Ultimately, abortion cannot be included in our nature. Because it is negative. So I reject it today. As my part in life.

 

[McBell]

No everything I do is natural *in this time* because I am a result of everyrjing before me. But what naturally occurs in the future will depend on what happens today... And I believe that in general, positivity and love prevail over long, extended periods of time. Through generations and trials over billions of years, and we are just fulfilling our role.

Ultimately, abortion cannot be included in our nature. Because it is negative. So I reject it today. As my part in life.

As long as women get pregnant and carry to term, abortion will be a necessity, even if only in small doses

 

[epronovost]

Wrong. Several of them a quite time sensitive. Delaying skin lesion removals and hip replacements leads to increased numbers of deaths.

And each of them are treated individually. A doctor will determine if the procedure is elective or not. If they the patient is at risk, the procedure is no loner elective. That's what "elective surgery" means in the first place. This has already been mentionned before. I think your news article is trying to foster outrage over a wedge issue even if there isn't really anything to be outraged about.

The key issue, as I see it, is that the government should not be the institution making these decisions. The individuals and the medical professionals are much better suited to make these decisions, IMHO.

The medical professionals are included in this decision. They say what is or isn't an elective surgery. In the same fashion, an abortion isn't always elective, sometimes it's necessary because it could kill a woman. In that later case, the procedure isn't elective. It's a life and death emergency.

 

[Cooky]

As long as women get pregnant and carry to term, abortion will be a necessity, even if only in small doses

I agree. We will learn to use it wisely, and for positive purposes. Some day.

...I'm just a forerunner, doing my thing.

 

[columbus]

No everything I do is natural *in this time* because I am a result of everything before me, where ongoing problems already exist, yet others resolved.

What this sounds like is that you consider what you do to be natural, but things other people do and you don't are unnatural.

Feel free to be more clear.
Tom

 

[epronovost]

I guess I don't want abortion to be included in our human nature. I don't want it included in our evolution.

As far as I can tell you as an historian, abortion pretty much always were a thing. We have found traces of abortion potions in very primitive societies and evidence that surgical abortions were practiced in Antiquity and the Middle-Ages. From our earliest days though, infanticide was more commonly practiced with undesired children or in times of great scarcity. I still is in parts of the world where there is no access to abortions and/or good neo-natal care. Are abortions "part of our evolution"? I would say yes. It's a longstanding practice that allowed us to better survive and prosper in a harsh world. Unlike many other animals, humans unfortunately cannot abort at will their fetuses, but like all things we have evolved to find work around our limitations.