Elective surgery is banned unless... it is for abortion

[Cooky]

What this sounds like is that you consider what you do to be natural, but things other people do and you don't are unnatural.

Feel free to be more clear.
Tom

No, we're all doing what is natural at this time. But what will be natural in the future will be built on us perfecting this dilemma. And there is a dilemma because we disagree, (a negative). But with time, we will agree and it will be the more positive outcome, and it will become our "true" nature, carved into our evolution forever... Just like slavery won't come back.

 

[columbus]

As long as women get pregnant and carry to term, abortion will be a necessity, even if only in small doses

Only a tiny percentage of moral freaks oppose all abortions under all circumstances.
Tom

 

[Cooky]

As far as I can tell you as an historian, abortion pretty much always were a thing. We have found traces of abortion potions in very primitive societies and evidence that surgical abortions were practiced in Antiquity and the Middle-Ages. From our earliest days though, infanticide was more commonly practiced with undesired children or in times of great scarcity. I still is in parts of the world where there is no access to abortions and/or good neo-natal care. Are abortions "part of our evolution"? I would say yes. It's a longstanding practice that allowed us to better survive and prosper in a harsh world. Unlike many other animals, humans unfortunately cannot abort at will their fetuses, but like all things we have evolved to find work around our limitations.

I guess you and I disagree on what's a better way to live in regards to 'surviving and prospering'. Over time, what's most positive will win. And it will be achieved naturally.

 

[McBell]

Only a tiny percentage of moral freaks oppose all abortions under all circumstances.
Tom

I agree.
The point I wanted to find is where his thought was on it.
He is basically saying that so long as he can see it as a positive to him it is natural.
He agrees that not all abortion is negative, which he believes is not natural.

Thus he has pretty much rendered the word natural to be worthless.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, we're all doing what is natural at this time. But what will be natural in the future will be built on us perfecting this dilemma. And there is a dilemma because we disagree, (a negative). But with time, we will agree and it will be the more positive outcome, and it will become our "true" nature, carved into our evolution forever... Just like slavery won't come back.

What would your argument against abortion be if it were "natural"?
And what argument would you make if you avoided the idea of natural vs unnatural?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, but what's positive and negative plays a major role in what's natural in my view... Ultimately... In the end... After it's all said and done...

So anything can be either natural or unnatural depending on whether the outcome is subjectively positive or negative. Aborting a birth that would cause the death of both the mother and fetus is natural, because the outcome can interpreted as positive? But using the same knowledge, procedures and technology to end an unwanted pregnancy is unnatural, because it can be interpreted negatively?

 

[Cooky]

The weirdest thing is, that if what's most positive tends to win over extended millennia's, through trials, and errors and refining over and over, then do we know what the natural goal is for life altogether?. The goal of life itself..? Being about positivity in the end?

I digress.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, but what's positive and negative plays a major role in what's natural in my view... Ultimately... In the end... After it's all said and done...

Research indicates that as many as 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. Is this positive or negative? Is it evidence of divine opinion on abortion?

 

[Cooky]

So anything can be either natural or unnatural depending on whether the outcome is subjectively positive or negative. Aborting a birth that would cause the death of both the mother and fetus is natural, because the outcome can interpreted as positive? But using the same knowledge, procedures and technology to end an unwanted pregnancy is unnatural, because it can be interpreted negatively?

Aah... I forgot about the possibility of something being "subjectivity" positive or negative.

But why does it have to be subjective? Won't nature dictate it by our own decisions ultimately in the end?

 

[columbus]

No, we're all doing what is natural at this time.

So, what do you mean by natural?
Other than things you consider "positive"?

. Just like slavery won't come back.

I wouldn't be so sure.
Slavery still exists. It's a function of primitive ethics, like the one's religions espouse. And while modern, unnatural, secular ethics are working(mostly) at this time to keep stuff like slavery at bay, we humans(90% religious) are on a path to self destruction. Combine environmental disaster, pandemics, declining resources, population overload, and high powered weapons and I'm seeing disaster in the near future for humanity.

I fully expect slavery and such to reappear when religious folks bring about Armageddon.
Tom

 

[Dan From Smithville]

What would your argument against abortion be if it were "natural"?
And what argument would you make if you avoided the idea of natural vs unnatural?

Given the redefinition of the meaning of natural, your post --all posts--exist in a super-position state of being both natural and unnatural depending on the perception of others. Maybe?

 

[Cooky]

What would your argument against abortion be if it were "natural"?
And what argument would you make if you avoided the idea of natural vs unnatural?

I think if it were *truly* natural, I would not be opposed to it to begin with as a product of nature myself. But since I am, and many others like me are, refining must still take place.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Aah... I forgot about the possibility of something being "subjectivity" positive or negative.

But why does it have to be subjective? Won't nature dictate it by our own decisions ultimately in the end?

Most human activity could be seen as in opposition to nature. Wearing clothing is in opposition to the environment. We are not born clothed.

 

[Cooky]

Given the redefinition of the meaning of natural, your post --all posts--exist in a super-position state of being both natural and unnatural depending on the perception of others. Maybe?

No, depending on time... As we evolve together in this little space.

 

[Cooky]

Most human activity could be seen as in opposition to nature. Wearing clothing is in opposition to the environment. We are not born clothed.

Yet at the same time, where could "unnatural" come from in natural animals such as us? So it all can only be natural, as this all happened in nature.

 

[Revoltingest]

Given the redefinition of the meaning of natural, your post --all posts--exist in a super-position state of being both natural and unnatural depending on the perception of others. Maybe?

Hmm....so Schrodinger's Cat was both natural & unnatural.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Aah... I forgot about the possibility of something being "subjectivity" positive or negative.

But why does it have to be subjective? Won't nature dictate it by our own decisions ultimately in the end?

Is what you believe, believed by all? Would everyone arrive at your conclusion from an unbiased analysis and review of the evidence. Are you, or anyone else able to know and review every piece of evidence? Is vanilla the best I've cream flavor?

 

[Cooky]

Hmm....so Schrodinger's Cat was both natural & unnatural.

How could anything be unnatural. That's what you're getting at. Right? That's what I'm saying... I believe you see that.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yet at the same time, where could "unnatural" come from in natural animals such as us? So it all can only be natural, as this all happened in nature.

Then abortion is natural and by your definition, also positive.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think if it were *truly* natural, I would not be opposed to it to begin with as a product of nature myself. But since I am, and many others like me are, refining must still take place.

So "natural" equates to your liking it?