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Elitism, Liberals, and the Poor

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How do they treat them, and who are "they"? From the occasional instances I've seen of someone expressing desire to live off the grid, a lot of the support they've gotten has been from people who lean environmentalist, and many of those are quite liberal.
Local governments, even liberal leaning ones,
aren't too friendly to people living the "van life".
Or tent life. Their approach to housing assistance
is dysfunctional, ie, it's either conventional housing
or nothing. I see room in between, eg, providing
facilities for van, car, & tent dwellers.
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
Interestingly I've met some liberals like the ones you talk of.

Many liberals I've came across seem to be for many types of human rights protecting everyone who is a minority except for when it comes to class and helping the poor. And that's such a strange thing to see.

I don't see for instance many liberals knowing anything about hostile architecture designs and laws that target the homeless. As someone who has slept outside its disheartening when I bring up class issues many self identify liberals I have talked to seem to not really care when they claim to want equality for folk.

But that's just a few liberals I've met there are some I have met not like that.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Try buying a plot of land in New York or just about any Blue state and try living permanently off grid in your RV or Trailer.

The Democrats will have the authorities at your doorstep in a heartbeat. Fine or even jail you.
Do you think you can just set up on a plot of land in a red state and nothing will happen?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Try buying a plot of land in New York or just about any Blue state and try living permanently off grid in your RV or Trailer.

The Democrats will have the authorities at your doorstep in a heartbeat. Fine or even jail you.

Do you have a source showing this to be the case?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Local governments, even liberal leaning ones,
aren't too friendly to people living the "van life".
Or tent life. Their approach to housing assistance
is dysfunctional, ie, it's either conventional housing
or nothing. I see room in between, eg, providing
facilities for van, car, & tent dwellers.

Is that specifically a liberal problem, or is it a problem with how the U.S. in general approaches homelessness or living in vans/tents?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Is that specifically a liberal problem...
Notice that I said "Local governments, even liberal leaning ones".
Surely this would imply that it's all local governments,
including middle of the road, & conservative ones.

BTW, I live in a very liberal town, Ann Arbor MI.
It is not friendly to people living on the margins.
Housing assistance is limited to very expensive
solutions available only to a fraction of those in
need. Tent communities aren't tolerated. One
near me was forcibly removed.

I accommodate some who cooperate with me
at my storage facility. It's below government's
radar.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Do you have a source showing this to be the case?

Granted it's not entirely illegal but it is so prohibitive and intentionally expensive, its very difficult for people to permanently settle down because of the laws and regulatory environment Democrats have instituted on people.

They say they want to help the poor but their policies state otherwise.


Off Grid Living is Illegal! Sort of...
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Granted it's not entirely illegal but it is so prohibitive and intentionally expensive, its very difficult for people to permanently settle down because of the laws and regulatory environment Democrats have instituted on people.

They say they want to help the poor but their policies state otherwise.


Off Grid Living is Illegal! Sort of...

I'd be interested to see whether red states allowed that. It sounds more like a general problem in the U.S. than one specific to Democrats or Republicans.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I'd be interested to see whether red states allowed that. It sounds more like a general problem in the U.S. than one specific to Democrats or Republicans.
The best states from. What I hear are Florida, Texas, Arizona, and the Dakota states particularly North Dakota.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'd be interested to see whether red states allowed that. It sounds more like a general problem in the U.S. than one specific to Democrats or Republicans.
It is indeed a general problem.
But the reason Democrats are mentioned is that
they've the reputation (in their own minds?) for
being more live-&-let-live than Republicans.
So when Dems refuse to allow high density housing,
tiny houses, mobile homes, van life, etc, it might
raise more eyebrows.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The best states from. What I hear are Florida, Texas, Arizona, and the Dakota states particularly North Dakota.
"I hear".
It isn't any easier to live off grid in Texas or Florida than it is in Oregon or California. All four states have strict water and sewage regulation and permits for land use, wildlife husbandry, limits on crop spread, clear cutting, burning etc.
People get kicked out of off grid for improper sanitation and water use all the time in Florida in particular.

Ironically Florida also makes living off grid harder because energy lobbyists make solar less accessible and more highly regulated. Guess who is in charge of those energy companies?
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there any evidence that poorer people hold rightwing views in greater proportion than middle income or rich people? In USA non-college educated people need not be poor.

There seem to be a lot of poor liberal minded folks, but they don't always 'speak' very loud, so tend to get drowned out.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
It is indeed a general problem.
But the reason Democrats are mentioned is that
they've the reputation (in their own minds?) for
being more live-&-let-live than Republicans.
So when Dems refuse to allow high density housing,
tiny houses, mobile homes, van life, etc, it might
raise more eyebrows.

And many Republicans often tout "free speech" and "bodily autonomy" (concerning vaccines) but want to impose theocratic limits on topics they oppose (e.g., LGBT issues) and ban elective abortion.

Problematic policies should raise eyebrows regardless of what the groups espousing them claim to stand for.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There seem to be a lot of poor liberal minded folks, but they don't always 'speak' very loud, so tend to get drowned out.
I find it hard to believe that poor people will not in general agree with "tax the rich", "higher unemployment benefits", "higher minimum wage" and "better worker protection" policies. Seems counterintuitive if true.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Is it just me, or do many self-identified liberals seem to look down on poor people and others from communities who have low or no access to education?

Almost every time there's a major event such as the pandemic, U.S. elections, or the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I see a subset of liberals quickly blame the "uneducated and ignorant" people who hold certain views about a given event.

Now, make no mistake: there are absolutely many misinformed, inaccurate, and/or downright harmful beliefs that one can hold, but when a portion of society have been disenfranchised, denied access to basic education, and been abused and neglected by the same governmental and media institutions they're supposed to trust, what else can we expect?

People can thumb their noses all they want at a poor person who genuinely believes that a COVID vaccine will kill them or that the GOP have the solution to their poverty, but it seems to me that beliefs don't originate in a vacuum. Moralizing and invariably attributing such people's disillusionment to some condemnable ignorance doesn't help when under different circumstances, many of them would have markedly different worldviews.

I saw this first-hand when I was in the army. A fellow conscript from a rural area, who was illiterate, said that one of his biggest wishes was to be able to read and write. Expectedly, he also had religiously conservative views per the norm in his largely poor rural area.

Blaming him for being "uneducated" would simply miss the point. Of course he is; nobody is born with a master's or a PhD. This is someone the education system, social security, and society at large have largely failed. Realistically, is he going to be a religious conservative, or is he going to listen to liberals in suits and air-conditioned lecture halls talking about how ignorant and reprehensible he and people like him are for having the views that they do?

I feel like some liberals could benefit from studying and understanding the social, economic, and political conditions that shape people's perspectives instead of clinging to a one-dimensional narrative that moralizes more than it makes an effort to realistically analyze why and how people hold the beliefs that they do--and how to go about changing the problematic aspects thereof in a practical way.

Discuss.
Ok. Facts are otherwise.
Poor and minority people support Democrats more while less educated white majority people support Republicans more. These two populations do not coincide when it comes to party choice.
The Demographic Profiles of Democrats and Republicans – DASIL
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there any evidence that poorer people hold rightwing views in greater proportion than middle income or rich people? In USA non-college educated people need not be poor.


I haven't seen such evidence, and I haven't claimed that poorer people are more likely to be conservative. My argument is merely that sometimes having incorrect or unscientific views stems from low or no education due to poverty.

That said, this chart from 2016 shows that Republican districts had higher rates of poverty increases than Democratic ones. I'd be curious whether that has changed since:

Poverty crosses party lines

Ok. Facts are otherwise.
Poor and minority people support Democrats more while less educated white majority people support Republicans more. These two populations do not coincide when it comes to party choice.
The Demographic Profiles of Democrats and Republicans – DASIL

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing!
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
I find it hard to believe that poor people will not in general agree with "tax the rich", "higher unemployment benefits", "higher minimum wage" and "better worker protection" policies. Seems counterintuitive if true.

Often speaking, yes, with one exception, and that's the minimum wage thing. Many left leaning poor I've spoken with are not uniformly on board with this(some are, some are not), and that is because of the inflation that often goes along with wage hikes. When you're poor, the price of milk going up a dollar really is a big deal. You might make more, but now you're spending more, so you're back where you were at before.

Many are for price caps(such as not letting the price of milk exceed 3.50 per gallon, just for an example), but that's anti-capitalist apparently, and that opens up a whole new can of worms...
 
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