Elizabeth Warren for President(?)

[Revoltingest]

I've never understood people who voted for Bush the second time. As for Obama and his continuing the wars... I don't see how he had any alternatives.

There's an obvious alternative: Immediate withdrawel
Results would've been no less feckless, & we'd have avoided more death & cost.

The problem was we should never have gone into Iraq. (In hindsight I wouldn't have gone to war in Afghanistan but at least that one makes some sense.) But once you are there you can't just pull the plug the second you walk into the white house.

That's exactly what I wanted. A Libertarian would'a done just that.

I can still be against the wars and not want to pull out and leave things unstable (as happened).

They're on the verge of becoming stable now? But even if they were, it wasn't worth the cost IMO.

 

[Underhill]

There's an obvious alternative: Immediate withdrawel
Results would've been no less feckless, & we'd have avoided more death & cost.

That's exactly what I wanted. A Libertarian would'a done just that.

They're on the verge of becoming stable now? But even if they were, it wasn't worth the cost IMO.

That is a separate discussion. One I am open to. But the assumption was made that if you disliked Bush taking us into the war, then you had to be in favor of immediate withdrawal.

My point is that regardless of whether we should have started the war or not, it was done. The results of that invasion fall on us.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is a separate discussion. One I am open to. But the assumption was made that if you disliked Bush taking us into the war, then you had to be in favor of immediate withdrawal.
My point is that regardless of whether we should have started the war or not, it was done. The results of that invasion fall on us.

At any point, we (Americastan) have the ability to do what we believe is right, even if it means admitting that all our previous 'investment' in Iraq & Afghanistan were a waste. I say the sooner the better. But that's a tough call for a politician, who might be seen as the one who lost the wars.
Sometimes disgrace must be endured.

 

[Underhill]

At any point, we (Americastan) have the ability to do what we believe is right, even if it means admitting that all our previous 'investment' in Iraq & Afghanistan were a waste. I say the sooner the better. But that's a tough call for a politician, who might be seen as the one who lost the wars.
Sometimes disgrace must be endured.

I couldn't care less about disgrace. I care about the people of Iraq. We screwed them over but good. Broke in their house, killed their dog, ripped out the wiring, scrapped the plumbing and then want to leave with a note hanging on the empty fridge we plundered, "Yeah, we changed our minds, good luck!"...

 

[Revoltingest]

I couldn't care less about disgrace. I care about the people of Iraq. We screwed them over but good. Broke in their house, killed their dog, ripped out the wiring, scrapped the plumbing and then want to leave with a note hanging on the empty fridge we plundered, "Yeah, we changed our minds, good luck!"...

Iraq was suffering badly (& causing it for others) before the war. The difference after the wars started was that suffering was no longer limited to killing & torture of opposition, student activists, Kurds, Iranians & Shiites..
But I'm concerned more about the loss of Americastanian money, lives, & money....& gaining more enmity from the Muslim world. That's why I'd have us withdraw immediately.

 

[Underhill]

Iraq was suffering badly (& causing it for others) before the war. The difference after the wars started was that suffering was no longer limited to killing & torture of opposition, student activists, Kurds, Iranians & Shiites..
But I'm concerned more about the loss of Americastanian money, lives, & money....& gaining more enmity from the Muslim world. That's why I'd have us withdraw immediately.

I understand and agree. But that is the price we pay for starting the mess. It sucks, but I'm a firm believer in owning our mistakes and dealing with the consequences rather than making others pay for them.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand and agree. But that is the price we pay for starting the mess. It sucks, but I'm a firm believer in owning our mistakes and dealing with the consequences rather than making others pay for them.

I too favor owning up to mistakes. Immediate withdrawal is the best way for us.

 

[esmith]

I too favor owning up to mistakes. Immediate withdrawal is the best way for us.

In most instances I agree with you Rev, but in this case I must disagree. When the US invaded Iraq (right or wrong is a moot point) then when we withdrew we left a power vacuum, an unstable government and degraded police/military force which was incapable of maintaining the security of the citizens. You will also have to agree that the same thing took place in Libya and probably will in Afghanistan. The only time in recent history that the US "did the right thing" is in the post-war occupation of Japan and Germany; yes the ethnic makeup was different than what we find in Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan.. Everyone, well almost everyone, admits that what has happened in Iraq was basically the fault of the follow-on government and the rift between the 3 major entities of Iraq; the Sunnis, Shies, and Kurds. It is my opinion, that it was the fault of the US politicians that allowed this to happen. They made the assumption that since a "democratic" government was in place that everything would be just hunky-dory. Yes, it would have taken a heavy handed policy to ensure that what happened didn't happen. I don't know how long it would have taken to ensure that to happen, but I look at it this way. We broke it and we now are responsible for the country. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that a majority of the countries in the Middle East and Africa would have been better off, security wise, if the meddlesome Western powers would have left them alone and went with the policy of....as long as you are not directly or indirectly threatening us or our allies we will leave you alone; however if you do you can expect swift and harsh retributions (without taking out the government).

 

[metis]

When will we learn that we can't stay in these countries forever and that they are pretty much going to be what they're going to be? We are all too often involved in short-term rather than long-term thinking. Sometimes I wonder if we do any thinking at all.

 

[Midnight Rain]

When will we learn that we can't stay in these countries forever and that they are pretty much going to be what they're going to be? We are all too often involved in short-term rather than long-term thinking. Sometimes I wonder if we do any thinking at all.

The problem is that we have lobbyist that want perpetual war which means perpetual profits for certain companies.

 

[metis]

The problem is that we have lobbyist that want perpetual war which means perpetual profits for certain companies.

And much the same can be said about many politicians who ramp up war hysteria for popularity purposes.

Anyhow, I wish you were wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

In most instances I agree with you Rev, but in this case I must disagree.

That's a relief! I was concerned that posters might think we 2 are an item.

When the US invaded Iraq (right or wrong is a moot point) then when we withdrew we left a power vacuum, an unstable government and degraded police/military force which was incapable of maintaining the security of the citizens. You will also have to agree that the same thing took place in Libya and probably will in Afghanistan. The only time in recent history that the US "did the right thing" is in the post-war occupation of Japan and Germany; yes the ethnic makeup was different than what we find in Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan.. Everyone, well almost everyone, admits that what has happened in Iraq was basically the fault of the follow-on government and the rift between the 3 major entities of Iraq; the Sunnis, Shies, and Kurds. It is my opinion, that it was the fault of the US politicians that allowed this to happen. They made the assumption that since a "democratic" government was in place that everything would be just hunky-dory. Yes, it would have taken a heavy handed policy to ensure that what happened didn't happen. I don't know how long it would have taken to ensure that to happen, but I look at it this way. We broke it and we now are responsible for the country. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that a majority of the countries in the Middle East and Africa would have been better off, security wise, if the meddlesome Western powers would have left them alone and went with the policy of....as long as you are not directly or indirectly threatening us or our allies we will leave you alone; however if you do you can expect swift and harsh retributions (without taking out the government).

If we'd gone in & defeated all opposition in Iraq or Afghanistan (not something I'd do), then clean-up efforts would work. But we didn't go in there committed to win, so we didn't. With opposition still active, it's a foregone conclusion that our efforts will fail. All subsequent lives & money will very likely be a waste.

 

[Revoltingest]

And much the same can be said about many politicians who ramp up war hysteria for popularity purposes.

Anyhow, I wish you were wrong.

She is wrong. Both Bush & Obama were re-elected after 4 years of continuing the wars. The voters have spoken.

 

[Midnight Rain]

She is wrong. Both Bush & Obama were re-elected after 4 years of continuing the wars. The voters have spoken.

*correction*
The voters have read from a piece of paper called "The Media".

 

[Revoltingest]

*correction*
The voters have read from a piece of paper called "The Media".

The media continually reported that we were at war, on the deaths, & on the cost. Seeing this, the voters approved of continuing the wars. I speculate that all the Dems & Pubs who don't like the wars just can't face the fact that they approved of them. So it's more comforting to create a boogeyman, ie, the defense industry. I worked in that field, & they don't have nearly the power attributed to them by conspiracy theorists. This means that voters who dislike adventurist foreign wars but like Warren should take a close look at her record & pronouncements regarding those wars, Syria & Iran.

 

[Midnight Rain]

The media continually reported that we were at war, on the deaths, & on the cost. Seeing this, the voters approved of continuing the wars. I speculate that all the Dems & Pubs who don't like the wars just can't face the fact that they approved of them. So it's more comforting to create a boogeyman, ie, the defense industry. I worked in that field, & they don't have nearly the power attributed to them by conspiracy theorists. This means that voters who dislike adventurist foreign wars but like Warren should take a close look at her record & pronouncements regarding those wars, Syria & Iran.

Well in the mind's of the people they were either going to vote for Obama or Romney. Which at least said they were more likely to pull out of wars? In reality neither did so its much like choosing between being punched or kicked. Either way we get beat up.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well in the mind's of the people they were either going to vote for Obama or Romney. Which at least said they were more likely to pull out of wars? In reality neither did so its much like choosing between being punched or kicked. Either way we get beat up.

Obama was a guarantee of more of the same. Romney had slightly more of a wild card element. But there are other parties...anti-war parties. The voters elected more war.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Obama was a guarantee of more of the same. Romney had slightly more of a wild card element. But there are other parties...anti-war parties. The voters elected more war.

His sheer lack of appreciation for basic human rights disgusted me though. So I don't think that I could have voted for him anyway.

 

[Revoltingest]

His sheer lack of appreciation for basic human rights disgusted me though. So I don't think that I could have voted for him anyway.

So the voters elected a repeat of 4 more years of Obama's wars. But there's more! They also elected a Congress which continued the wars. I also noticed that once Bush's wars became Obama's, the very public protests ended. People are more OK with wasteful wars than they'll admit.

 

[metis]

It's pretty much common knowledge that Obama wanted out of Iraq but was steered by military advisers not to so too quickly. OTOH, he doubled down on Afghanistan, which I felt and the time and feel now was a big mistake.