"Empire" Prophecies in the Book of Rev. (Abrahamic only)

[BlandOatmeal]

Let me not be the last to confess, that Revelation is a difficult book to understand. The reader can see that I am struggling with the matter -- I am not trying to defend any "pet theories", simply because I do not have any.

There are many details about the "empire" prophecies i Revelation, that people obviously do not agree about. They need to be investigated, one detail at a time. At the heart of the "empire" prophecies are two particular beasts, which have been associated with world empires. They are isomorphic, each having seven heads and ten horns. They are

1. the Devil, called "the Dragon", and
2. the "beast that comes out of the sea"

They are related to each other as follows:

Rev 13
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
[2] And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
[3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
[4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

I have brought up the matter of the two "women", because they are both associated with beasts of this form: The Rev. 12 woman is opposed by a 7/10 creature that is explicitly called "the Dragon" and "Satan":

Rev 12
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads...

[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

There is so much symbolism in these two beasts -- or, perhaps I should say, for the sake of clarity, these two "creatures" -- that it can boggle the mind, trying to keep up with it. First of all, let me deal with the idendifying marks that have already been presented in the eight short verses above:

THE LION, THE BEAR, AND THE LEOPARD.

The creatures each had SEVEN heads and TEN horns; yet one of them the "beast" that came "out of the sea", was described by only THREE animals. There is obviously, then, not a 1:1 correspondence between these animals and either the heads or the horns. Rather, I and many commentators beside me believe the purpose of these "animal" symbols is to identify the creatures of Revelation, particularly "the beast", with the beasts described in Daniel 7:

Dan 7
[3] And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
[4] The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
[5] And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
[6] After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
[7] After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

In Daniel, those animals appeared in chronological order, each one representing a kingdom, or empire, that arose after the one before it. The last "animal" of Dan 7 was the "beast" that "came out of the sea".

"THE SEA"

Rev 13
[1] και ειδον εκ της θαλασσης θηριον αναβαινον εχον κεφαλας επτα και κερατα δεκα και επι των κερατων αυτου δεκα διαδηματα και επι τας κεφαλας αυτου ονομα βλασφημιας

θαλασσης, Pronounce: thal'-as-sah
Heb Strong: H339 H3220 H3225 H4310 H8486 H8585 H8658
1) the sea
1a) used of the sea in general
1b) used specifically of the Mediterranean Sea or the Red Sea

-- http://www.godrules.net/library/strongs2b/gre2281.htm

θαλασσης is preceded by the DEFINITE article, της, indicating that a SPECIFIC "sea" is meant, namely, the Mediterranean. This identifies "the beast" with an empire coming from that direction, and the likeliest candidates are

1. (in John's day) The Roman Empire, and
2. (in our day) Western European Civilization, typified by the "Western European Union" and North America. Collectively, these major "horns" are best described as NATO. The "Union", in turn, consists of the following members:

1. Belgium
2. France
3. Germany
4. Greece
5. Italy
6. Luxembourg
7. Netherlands
8. Portugal
9. Spain
10. United Kingdom

The WEU is no longer with us, its functions having been absorbed by NATO and the EU; but its total number of "10" ought to get some brain cells firing.

I haven't been troubling much with the identity of the two Seven-Headed Creatures, because their identity is obvious to most commentators. I am genuinely puzzled about the identities of the women, though, and the "man child" of Rev. 12.

Concerning the two creatures, the dragon is obviously connected with the Rev. 12 woman. "The Beast" appears to be the one connected with the Rev. 17 woman, because it is described as (1) and EARTHLY power (not the Devil), and (2) like the beast that comes out of "the sea", it is one in a SUCCESSION of empires:

Rev. 17
[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
[9] And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
[10] And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
[11] And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The four beasts of Daniel 7 were (It is agreed by most commentators) as follows:Babylon (the lion)

1. Persia (the bear)
2. Greece (the leopard)
3. Rome (the seven-headed, ten-horned beast)

InvestigateTruth described the Persian Empire as the "sun" that the woman was clothed with. In the symbology of Daniel and Revelation, though, Persia is designated as the bear. The Bible, then, clearly does not use SECULAR symbols to pertain to these countries, such as "the sun" for Persia and "the moon" for the Ottoman Empire. The crescent moon, in fact, is associated not just with the Ottoman Empire but with Islam in general (appearing on the flags of former Ottoman states of Turkey, Tunisia and Algeria, but also on the former Persian states of Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan, as well as those of Pakistan and Malaysia). Because of this, the "Red Crescent" is the symbol for emergency services of Muslim countries. As for Persia, modern-day Iran, the International Red Cross symbol designated for them is a red lion; though they use the crescent moon in practice, along with the other Muslim countries. In any case, Iran/Persia is identified with the BEAST, not with the WOMAN.

I am still trying to figure out the identities of the women, and of the man child.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Let me not be the last to confess, that Revelation is a difficult book to understand. The reader can see that I am struggling with the matter -- I am not trying to defend any "pet theories", simply because I do not have any.

It is ok to try. But one of the most significant teachings from Bible and from the History of Religion is "NO Private Interpretation"
By this is meant that, since the prophecies are mysteries of God, only God alone can reveal its meaning in "Its Own Time"
Consider again the Prophecy regarding "Emmanual", before Jesus, perhaps, none among the Jewish scholars knew this is about Messiah. It was only known after Jesus came. But even until now, surely the Jewish scholars would argue that, "Emmanual" prophecy is about those kings, and not Messiah.
The point is, none knows its interpretation perfectly correct, whether scholar or non-scholar.
Likewise the Book of revelation contains mysteries of God written with Figurative language. None among the Christian scholars or non-scholars can know the interpretation of the Book. Only the Promised One is worthy to unseal the Book, so it can be read (see the verse in Revelation).
Now, since the Promised One already came, He revealed the interpretations of it in our holy Book. But He did not ask anyone to blindly accept His Book. He asked to investigate free from Bias and prejudgment.

[5] And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.


In Daniel, those animals appeared in chronological order, each one representing a kingdom, or empire, ......

1. (in John's day) The Roman Empire, and
2. (in our day) Western European Civilization, typified by the "Western European Union" and North America. Collectively, these major "horns" are best described as NATO. The "Union", in turn, consists of the following members:

The WEU is no longer with us, its functions having been absorbed by NATO and the EU; but its total number of "10" ought to get some brain cells firing.

These are good usage of imagination. But it is a private interpretation, not one revealed by the Promised one to unseal the Book.

InvestigateTruth described the Persian Empire as the "sun" that the woman was clothed with. In the symbology of Daniel and Revelation, though, Persia is designated as the bear.

"Lion and Sun motif is one of the better known emblems of Iran, and between 1576[citation needed] and 1979 was an element in Iran's national flag.[3]"
Emblem of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bible, then, clearly does not use SECULAR symbols to pertain to these countries, such as "the sun" for Persia and "the moon" for the Ottoman Empire.

How do you know God could not use the same symbols that was known?
Can we determine any rules for God as to how to use symbols?

The crescent moon, in fact, is associated not just with the Ottoman Empire but with Islam in general

Usage of 'Moon' as emblem dates back to pre-Islam.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Hi, Investigate. It's nice to know that someone beside me is interested in these things.

It is ok to try. But one of the most significant teachings from Bible and from the History of Religion is "NO Private Interpretation"
By this is meant that, since the prophecies are mysteries of God, only God alone can reveal its meaning in "Its Own Time"

I don't see that this scripture says that at all. Rather, I believe the opposite -- that it is an injuction against following ESOTERIC teachings that rely on cultic knowledge, obtained through an initiative process, rather than on the open exposition of the scriptures.

Consider again the Prophecy regarding "Emmanual", before Jesus, perhaps, none among the Jewish scholars knew this is about Messiah. It was only known after Jesus came. But even until now, surely the Jewish scholars would argue that, "Emmanual" prophecy is about those kings, and not Messiah.
The point is, none knows its interpretation perfectly correct, whether scholar or non-scholar.

Ask any Jew what that scripture means. "Emmanuel" was and still is a VERY common name among Jews. The scripture you are referring to simply was not a Messianic Prophecy. This is covered in other threads, and I don't wish to go into it here.

Likewise the Book of revelation contains mysteries of God written with Figurative language. None among the Christian scholars or non-scholars can know the interpretation of the Book. Only the Promised One is worthy to unseal the Book, so it can be read (see the verse in Revelation).
Now, since the Promised One already came, He revealed the interpretations of it in our holy Book. But He did not ask anyone to blindly accept His Book. He asked to investigate free from Bias and prejudgment.

Since Revelation was written after the death of Jesus, I presume that the "promised one" you refer to is the Bab. Your opinion in this matter is not universally held -- especially, not by me.

These are good usage of imagination. But it is a private interpretation, not one revealed by the Promised one to unseal the Book.

You are relying on the cultic, private knowledge revealed by your "Promised one". This is the very thing the Bible speaks against. There is nothing "private" about what I am saying here -- I am throroughly and openly showing my thoughts, and the scriptures they are based on...

How do you know God could not use the same symbols that was known? Can we determine any rules for God as to how to use symbols?

None of us knows what God's symbols mean, except the meanings revealed by scripture. They cannot be revealed by esoteric knowledge. The best way to understand the symbolism used in Revelation is by seeing how it is used elsewhere in Revelation.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

An important element in understanding who the Rev. 12 woman is, is to ascertain who the "man child" is. Here is how he is described in Rev. 12:

Rev. 12
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Let's see if this description occurs elsewhere in scripture:

Pss 2
[1] Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[6] Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
[7] I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
[8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
[10] Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
[11] Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
[12] Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

It is clear from the above, that this "anointed" one (i.e. "Messiah", or המשיח in Hebrew) is someone who has not come yet -- and certainly not the Bab. If Messiah had already come in power, the nations of the earth would have all been dashed to pieces. As it is, they are still alive and well, and we pay taxes to them every year.

Elsewhere in Revelation, we have,

Rev. 2
[24] But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
[25] But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The above verse is, to me, extremely profound. It is the first explicit identification I have seen of MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH as carrying out the ruling role of MESSIAH in the Millennial Kingdom. If this is what is referred to in Rev. 12 as the "man child", then indeed, the "woman" of that passage is the church, and the "3½ years" refers to a coming period of time -- one which may well be the same period referred to elsewhere in Revelation as "a time, times and half a time", "1,260 days" and "42 months".

Just to be thorough, I will see where else the expression occurs in Revelation:

Rev 19
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

In this passage, Messiah is personified as a single horseman. He is identified with the "Word of God"; but it is not through his PERSON that he conquers the world, but by the power that comes OUT OF HIS MOUTH.

Through these scriptures, it appears clear to me that, although Messiah may come in such a form that all men can see him, his actual RULE will be through subordinates -- through those who internalize the word of God, as practiced and preached by Jesus, in their lives: to those who, as Revelation 2 says,

"hold fast, overcome, and keep his works to the end."

Wow. :menorah:

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Having identified the man-child of Rev. 12 as "Christ within us, manifest to the world", I want to see what happens to us, once we come to this place of maturity:

Rev 12
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Up until the "birth", the action was apparently up in heaven -- up with the woman, the sun, the moon and the stars. The woman went into the "wilderness", apparently on earth, starting the 3½ year clock. I cannot say, exactly, how the woman came from heaven to earth around the same time that the "man-child" got caught up to heaven. The Dragon commenced then, to battle in heaven; but his time there had apparently come to leave, and Michael and his angels were showing him the door.

Though Michael was credited with FIGHTING the Devil, it is the SAINTS ON EARTH, aka "the church", who actually defeated him. They did so with

"the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loving not their lives unto the death:"

[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Because the church is said to be in danger of death during this period of time, it appears these will be times of persecution and tribulation.

[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

There is that time period: NOT 1,360 years, but 3½ -- unless, for the first and only time in scripture, a "time" is to be calculated as 360 years (which it isn't).

[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

This is the persecution, already alluded to in v. 13

[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

This is evidence that the woman, originally seen by John in heaven, was now to be found on earth.

[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This "remnant" caused an interpretive problem up until now. By identifying the "man-child" as Christians who, like the Thyatirans who persevered, manifested Jesus in their lives, this "remnant of her seed" could be seen as Christians that had not net matured to this condition. The man-child was caught up to God (Apperently, "loving their lives unto death" meant just that), and the woman was caught up and carried to the wilderness; but this weak "remnant" was vulnerable to attack.

This 3½ year period of persecution is alluded to elsewhere in Revelation:

Rev 11
[1] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

It is my opinion, that the "two witnesses" are the church and the Jews, and I have so opined elsewhere. Here we see both prophesying, during a time not only of persecution, but also of miracles, a time when Jerusalem itself is occupied by the United Nations (which, in Hebrew, translates to the "United Gentiles"). There is no reason to believe that the "time, times and half a time"; the "forty and two months" and the "thousand two hundred and threescore days" of both Rev. 11 and Rev. 12 are not one and the same time period.

Just to be thorough in this investigation, there is one other place in Revelation where this time period occurs:

Rev 13
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
[2] And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
[3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
[4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
[5] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
[6] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
[7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
[8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
[9] If any man have an ear, let him hear.

That seems to fit in with all that was said so far: The 3½ year period is the same in all cases: The church AND the Jews will apparently be persecuted by the "beast", both at the same time. Before this time comes about, a portion of the church (and of the Jews) will have girded itself up, and will do exploits.

Coming soon: THE TWO WITNESSES:

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't see that this scripture says that at all. Rather, I believe the opposite -- that it is an injuction against following ESOTERIC teachings that rely on cultic knowledge, obtained through an initiative process, rather than on the open exposition of the scriptures.

Hi BlandOatmean, That is precisely how so many Christian denominations are invented. Surely cults are one type of this. Each group of Christians came up with their own interpretations, claiming they know Bible better than others.
That the verse says "No Private Interpretation" does not mean no one is allowed to sit home alone and tries to interpret privately! No, it only means to interpret based on personal opinions and imaginations as many Christian Leaders have done rather than saying only God knows its interpretations perfectly.

Ask any Jew what that scripture means. "Emmanuel" was and still is a VERY common name among Jews. The scripture you are referring to simply was not a Messianic Prophecy. This is covered in other threads, and I don't wish to go into it here.

That's exactly what I said. Of course the Jews don't accept 'Emmanual" as a Messianic Prphecy. But the fact is in the Christian Bible, Matthew has quoted Isaiah 7:14 then made it equivalent with virgin birth of Jesus.

Since Revelation was written after the death of Jesus, I presume that the "promised one" you refer to is the Bab.

No, I meant Baha'u'llah.

Your opinion in this matter is not universally held -- especially, not by me.

It is irrelevant if it is held universally or not. Is belief in Jesus held universally?
Of course not. Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians do not believe in Jesus.
Even among Christians there are different views. Some held Jesus was only a man who discovered truth. Some say He was a Teacher. Some say He was a prophet. Some say He was only son of God but not God, and some say He was God.



Well,

You are relying on the cultic, .

How do yo know it is cultic?
What are you relying on?

private knowledge revealed by your "Promised one"

That is incorrect. Firstly Baha'i Scriptures are translated into 800 languages, and many of the Books are available on-line. So no privacy what so ever.
Second, He proclaimed He is the Promised one of the Bible and other Scriptures, not just Our Promised One. But I think your familiarity about scriptures is limited to only Bible, correct? Perhaps because you were born in a Christian family or society, therefore you thought only Christianity is True religion. How do you know God did not reveal other Scriptures?

This is the very thing the Bible speaks against. There is nothing "private" about what I am saying here -- I am throroughly and openly showing my thoughts, and the scriptures they are based on...

I explained what it can mean by privately.

None of us knows what God's symbols mean, except the meanings revealed by scripture.

Yes, exactly. And Scriptures is not limited to Bible! Unless we want to be narrow minded.

They cannot be revealed by esoteric knowledge. The best way to understand the symbolism used in Revelation is by seeing how it is used elsewhere in Revelation.

I would say the best was is to learn from the latest Manifestation of God, who is Baha'u'llah, because as Bible said the Book is sealed with 7 seals, and only the Promised One can open the seals.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Hi BlandOatmean, That is...

No, I meant Baha'u'llah... Some say He was a prophet. Some say He was only son of God but not God, and some say He was God...

But I think your familiarity about scriptures is limited to only Bible, correct? Perhaps because you were born in a Christian family or society, therefore you thought only Christianity is True religion. How do you know God did not reveal other Scriptures?...

Investigate, we are so far apart on these things, it's a waste of time to comment in detail. You did ask me a direct question about revelation in scriptures. Yes, I have read the Bible entirely through, several times. I haven't come across anything in the Bible that required explanation from an outside source, other than history books. I read Qur'an through twice, the Kybalion once, the Tao once, the Thought of Chairman Mao Tse Tung once, and parts of Mishnah and the Bhagavad Gita, as well as the Didache, the books of Barnabas, Clement and other pseudopigraphical works, and of course, the Apocrypha, as well as various ancient texts such as the Code of Hamurabbi, the Code of Eshnunna, the Execration Texts, yada yada. As Solomon said,

Qoh 12
[12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
[14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Shalom shalom

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Image from http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2508704/posts, which also has some discussion.

There is much ground to cover in these prophecies, and I have only scratched the surface. Now that I think I've discovered what the 3½ years is all about (it's an end-time period of persecution against God's people by the Devil and his minions), it's probably good to go into Rev. 11, the chapter immediately preceeding the one about the Woman and the Dragon. I believe this will either clarify what I've said so far, or cause me to rethink it a bit. I am particularly interested in the passage about the "Two Witnesses":

Rev. 11
[1] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The fact that the court outside the temple is being trodden underfoot by the Goiim ("Gentiles", or "Nations") for 3½ years, is evidence of an ongoing persecution. I believe this ties in with the attack on Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:

Zech 14
[1] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
[2] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

If the "half the city" referred to here is what is called "East Jerusalem", then the above could be accomplished simply by bringing about the "Two State Solution" that the world's leaders have been advocating -- for this is certainly what will happen to any Jews who happen to be left in that place if the Arabs take over. There is one notable exception, though: the temple is in East Jerusalem, not the the western part. When the Arabs controlled the area, from 1948 to 1967, they used the Western Wall of the temple for a garbage dump.

Rev. 11
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

These "witnesses" are identified here, with Zerubbabel the Governor and Jeshuah the High Priest, in Zechariah:

Zech 4
[1] And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
[2] And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
[3] And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
[4] So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
[5] Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
[7] Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
[8] Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[9] The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
[10] For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

The "anointed ones" in Israel, literally the "messiahs" were (1) the high priests, (2) the kings and (3) the prophets. In Zechariah and Haggai's time, the high priest was Jeshuah (= "Jesus" in Greek), and the Governor was of the line of Davidic kings, namely, Zerubbabel.

There is some speculation as to what, or who, these two anointed ones represent in the last days, spoken of in the Book of Revelation. It COULD be that one of them was Jesus, son of Joseph, spoken of in the gospels. If that is the case, then perhaps the 3½ years for the one "witness" was not the same 3½ years as for the second one; because Jesus has died once already, and has been taken up to heaven; so he cannot die a second time. That is not how it is spelled out, though, in Revelation:

Rev. 11
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[9] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

If the death of one of those witnesses referred to the crucifixion of Jesus, the Revelator would not have presented the matter in this way.

It could also be, that the two witnesses are a latter day King of Israel, chosen from one of the claimed lineages among the Jews today, along with a Cohen named as High Priest. Stranger things than these have happened before, so I will not decide at the moment. Instead, I'll go to bed.

Good night :sleep:
​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Investigate, we are so far apart on these things, it's a waste of time to comment in detail. You did ask me a direct question about revelation in scriptures. Yes, I have read the Bible entirely through, several times. I haven't come across anything in the Bible that required explanation from an outside source, other than history books. I read Qur'an through twice, the Kybalion once, the Tao once, the Thought of Chairman Mao Tse Tung once, and parts of Mishnah and the Bhagavad Gita, as well as the Didache, the books of Barnabas, Clement and other pseudopigraphical works, and of course, the Apocrypha, as well as various ancient texts such as the Code of Hamurabbi, the Code of Eshnunna, the Execration Texts, yada yada. As Solomon said,

Qoh 12
[12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
[14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Shalom shalom

I don't think we are very far apart. We both believe in Bible. We may have a different understanding of it.
But you wrote you don't think bible says it requires an outside source to understanf it.
What I was trying to show you was that, before Jesus comes and before New Testament was written, the Hebrew Scriptures contained many prophetic statements that their actual meaning was unknown or was unclear.
For example Jews expected Messiah to be a worldly king with a sword.
But now You know the Messiah was not a worldly king and His sword was the word of God that Seperated false from truth and not a physical sword.

How do we know these now? We know because after Jewish Scripture a new scripture came with name of New Testament that explains the meaning of those Prophecies in old testament.
Now, is there anything in Hebrew scriptures that said an outside source such as New Testament is required to understand the prophecies in Hebrew scriptures?

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Didn't sleep well -- I should've stopped after two pots of coffee.

It's easy to grab a passage from here and a passage from there, and come up with a doctrine. In the case of Revelation, there are so many parallel passages between it an Daniel, Ezekiel and Zechariah, that one would be remiss not to notice the similarities.

Nevertheless, there are notable differences. The main difference I see between the "two olive trees" in each case, is that in Zechariah the two trees feed only one menorah; whereas in Revelation they feed two.

There is another instance, where Revelation has a double number, namely, in the number of elders around the throne of God. In Revelation, the number is 24. In the old testament, 1 Chronicles 25 speaks of 24 groups of 12 each, of singers before the Lord. 1 Chronicles 24 also lists twenty-four orders of the priesthood, 16 from the sons of Eliezer and 8 from the sons of Ithamar. In my simplicity, I used to think the 24 elders represented the twelve apostles plus the twelve tribes of Israel. That would have explained the two menorahs: One for the church, and one for Israel -- two witnesses. I guess it pays to look things up.

Regardless of who the 24 elders are, it remains very curious that John saw two menorahs, but Zechariah saw only one. In Revelation, the "menorah" representing the church consisted of seven individual lampstands, connected to one another by the Roman province of Asia:

Rev. 1
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The second historical menorah, besides the church, was that in the temple at Jerusalem. For several decades, from Pentecost until the fall of Jerusalem (about 30-some years), both "menorahs" existed side-by-side; so I tend to think of the "two witnesses" as (1) the church and (2) the Jewish people. Nevertheless, there is still much to ponder on this matter.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

MORE ON THE LAMPSTAND (MENORAH)

In order to ascertain who the "two witnesses" are to be, we should see what the functions of the olive trees and lampstands are, which are used to describe them. Below is the best representation of where the Menorah was located in the Temple in Jerusalem:

To the left in the diagram is the Ark of the Covenant, which symbolized the presence of God. Note that access to it was limited by a curtain, opened only once a year to allow the High Priest to enter. When the priest entered and faced the Ark, his breastplate was presented towards God. This contained 12 stones, one for each tribe of Israel. Paul explained this as a type of Christ:

Heb 9
[1] Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
[2] For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
[3] And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
[4] Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
[5] And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
[6] Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
[7] But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
[8] The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
[9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
[10] Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
[11] But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

In the diagram, then, God is represented by the Ark; the altar of incense represents the prayers of the saints. It stands between God and everything else -- including between God and Jesus in most circumstances; but on the Day of Atonement, which is symbolic of the Final Judgment, Jesus (the High Priest) is with God in heaven; and all the rest of us are on the profane side of the curtain, offering up prayers.

In that (relatively) profane place, called the "Holy Place" because yet another veil separates it from the rest of humanity, stand two objects, which face one another. One is the shewbread table, holding the bread offerings of each of the twelve tribes, renewed every day; the other is the menorah, the only temple object whose form is unambiguous. It appears in a carving on Titus' Arch in Rome;

While the menorah is unmistakeable, the other objects are not. Several platten-like objects are shown, which may have been associated with the shewbread table; and the large box being carried by two poles was perhaps the altar of incense. The Ark and its "mercy seat" are not shown, having disappeared at the time of the Babylonian Captivity. The mercy seat was topped by two golden cherubim, some 30 feet from wingtip to wingtip; the ark itself was some 15 feet long:

1 Kings 6
[21] So Solomon overlaid the house within with pure gold: and he made a partition by the chains of gold before the oracle; and he overlaid it with gold.
[22] And the whole house he overlaid with gold, until he had finished all the house: also the whole altar that was by the oracle he overlaid with gold.
[23] And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
[24] And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
[25] And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.
[26] The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
[27] And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
[28] And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.

This is the first I've noticed, that the cherubs were made from olive trees. This may connect them with the olive trees of Zechariah and Revelation, which provided oil for the lampstands. This may be to signify that the oil that keeps the light burning comes from the presence of God.
​

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Pardon me, for turning my monologue into a stream of consciousness. If I had a point to promote, I could post it and get on with things. As it is, I am trying to DISCOVER the point; and what would really please me would be for someone else, also eager to discover God's message in this book, to discover it with me. We have the evidence in front of us, namely, the text itself. Now it's up to Poirot, Sherlock and Miss Marple.

First of all, there is a great deal to be said about the subject of "light". When we unclutter our lives of rote activities and vain pursuits, and sit alone in the presence of our Maker, life goes on; in fact, it reduces to the most important things. There is you, and there is God. You have a fleeting light in you; God's light is eternal.

This may cause you to wonder, what the purpose of light is. In a completely lit room, the addition of another light has diminishing value. In the presence of a great light, capable of filling the universe, this is even more so. Lights have no value in the light: They blind, rather than illuminating. LIght has value, though, in darkness.
The situation we are in with God, is rather like a lighthouse (God) shining His light (Truth, His Word) into the darkness (this present age), so that the ship at sea (us) can see it.

The Bible says, "the light of the body is the eye". Every living thing has a light in it; though in some, the Bible tells us, their light is darkness.

One of my great pleasures, living close to nature, is to communicate with the deer and the hummingbirds. The deer here are very tame, as wild creatures go, and very intelligent. They know everyone on our property by sight, and know which ones are peaceful. The young deer are a bit skittish at first, and quizzical; but after a few encounters, I can walk by almost close enough to touch them, and they aren't disturbed. The other day, we saw one next to the road, and slowed down to a crawl to look at him. He looked right back, eye to eye, and continued chewing his cud.

We had a freeze a little over a week ago, that went on for several days without abating. Because of this, we needed to swap out our hummingbird feeders, exchanging them every hour or so to make sure they didn't freeze over. My wife is usually the one who takes care of them, but on this occasion I had to be the one to take charge. I was the one who thought of doing the swapping, in fact, because the hummingbird, who seldom pays much attention to me, kept flying right up to my window, hovering and looking at me. It was then, that I knew he had a problem.

Where was the light, then, in those exchanges? In me? Or in the critters? It was from both of us, and it came ultimately from our mutual Creator.

When we talk about "candlesticks", or "menorahs", then, we are talking symbolically about God's relationship with us. In the Temple, and in the Tabernacle before it, the menorah was in the Holy Place, between the Most Holy sanctuary and the profane place outside. It's in this Holy Place that we meet God, and offer up our prayers at the altar of incense. It's here that Jesus, when he walked the earth, lived among us as our High Priest, praying every day to God, arising early and withdrawing to quiet places. And where were we in this exercise? We were the shewbread, one loaf for ever tribe of Israel; one each for every type of humanity; and we were represented continually before the priest AND the menorah by the twelve apostles.

I believe the olive oil is the word of God, which quickens our spirits when lit.

The menorah is designed to shine on US, then, not on God. In our eye-to-eye conversation with God, it represents God talking to US, not the other way around: He speaks to us with light, and we answer him with incense -- burning incense, to be sure, but producing more aroma than light. God can smell that aroma even in darkness, because it works its way through and around the curtain into his presence. We appeal to Him in secret; but He answers us openly, in full view.

When Revelation talks about two "witnesses", therefore, we are talking about two people or groups who have had a relationship with God. In either case, the oil is the same substance for each lampstand. In Zechariah, in fact, the oil pours from both trees into a common bowl, before being distributed. The only difference between the two lampstands, is that one is in Jerusalem, the other in Asia (which is to say, in the non-Jewish world).

There is a saying in the Bible, "In the mouths of two and three witnesses, let all things be established". Zechariah described only one lampstand, because his prophecy was to the Jewish people only. John described two lampstands, because his prophecy was to both groups. As for the two olive trees, these seem to have been two sources of the Word of God. Perhaps they represent the Law and the Prophets; or perhaps the Old and New Testaments. I can't say.

I do not think the "two witnesses" were individuals. I think they were two groups: the Jewish believers in God, and the Christian believers in God. I will have to plug these parameters into the rest of the prophecy, to see if this is the correct understanding.

Right now, it's time for housework.

Shalom shalom

 

[BlandOatmeal]

I haven't demonstrated, to my own satisfaction, that the "two witnesses" are groups and not people.

There is a big difference, because it affects what we think our roles will be during the coming times of persecution. Are the witnisses individuals? Then we will be merely spectators, watching two people doing spiritual gymnastics with the Devil. Are they groups? Then we are either part of one of them, or part of the world that rejoices when they are killed.

Rev. 11
[1] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Witnessing and prophesy are duties of the believers:

Acts 1
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Rev 19
[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
[5] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[6] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[9] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[13] And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

I have highlighted the TIME elements above. There is a definite sequence, one event after the other:

1. The 3½ years, during which part of Jerusalem is trodden down by the nations and the witnesses prophesy, clothed in sackcloth
2. The Beast makes war against the witnesses, and kills them
3. The witnesses' bodies lie unburied for 3½ days
4. The witnesses rise from the dead
5. There is a great earthquke, which causes the "remnant" (of the woman's children, who kept the Law of God and had the testimony of Jesus?) became afraid, and glorified God.

[14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Note that the above does not represent a "rapture" of the church or of the witnesses: They died, and are resurrected, not raptured. Also, two distinct groups of "Christians" (by this, I mean believers in the gospel) displayed: the "man-child" group, if you will, that is killed and resurrected, and the "remnant" who are latecomers in glorifying God, and who are still remaining. Considering the church as the "woman" of ch. 12, then, the two groups of her "children" are thus described:

Rev 12
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

As for those who were killed, and their number, I have often wondered what the following meant:

Rev 20
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

(Those on the thrones would be the "victorious Thyatirans" I spoke of in an earlier post)

...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Since the years of the "worshiping of the image" were the same 3½ years as those of the two witnesses prophesying, the "beheaded" ones could to be the witnesses -- as well as some of the "remnant" who likewise died during those days.

[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

What I had pondered about this passage, was whether there would be believing survivors of the beheading, who would reign alongside them in the Millennium. Apparently, there will be some -- from the remnant:

1 Cor 15
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Tess 4
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain [the "remnant"] unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Note that the killing of the two witnesses happens BEFORE the "coming of the Lord". This latter event will happen AFTER the "earthquake", etc. that will follow the resurrection of the two witnesses.

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

From what we've investigated so far, we can piece together a "rapture" and "tribulation" doctrine. The elements are:

1. All the church will go through the great persecution and tribulation
2. SOME of the church, a REMNANT, will be raptured at the END of the tribulation, to begin their reign with Christ of the earth, a reign exercised with a "rod of iron".

I think I've run out of room.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

I don't think we are very far apart. We both believe in Bible. We may have a different understanding of it...

Just out of curiosity, any comments on what I covered in the previous post, the one about the two witnesses, the resurrection and the rapture?

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Back to the study...

I did some lookups yesterday, but didn't find much. I was reminded that the word transtated as "witness" actually is the Greek form of "martyr". In Church tradition, it seems, "witnesses" of the gospel invariably have been killed for their testimony -- Steven, James, Peter, Paul... This was not always the case in reality, though: John lived a full life (though according to tradition, they tried to boil him in oil but he wouldn't boil), and some Godly men and women have certainly lived to a good old age (I've known a few myself). Speaking the truth, though, has meant persecution and death to many through the ages: John Huss, William Tyndale, Janani Luwum... None of these performed the miracles mentioned in Revelation.

Besides the Christian martyrs, we have six million Jewish martyrs, whose "testimony" of Torah was their very existence.

Supper's on... gottarun.

After "chewing" on it, I'd say we've had lots of martyrs, of every denomination, but no "fire from heaven" yet. That seems to point to this happening in the near future, during the reign of the "Beast" and "False Prophet", and probably involving only two individuals. If that's so, then, what's all this business of their being the "two lampstands"? In the beginning of Revelation, the seven lampstands were joined symbolically to represent the whole church. Why, then, would they here represent individuals? Are we to expect a large part of the church to somehow erupt in miracles when the reign of the Beast begins? I'm open to ideas.

Whatever the identity of the two witnesses, let's relate them timewise to the Beast & False Prophet, and to Zech. 14:

Rev 11
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Timewise, this means they will be prophesying DURING the prosecution of the church, namely of "[the woman's] seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." If the "sackcloth" is significant, I'm not sure how.

"Friedrich Schwally (in Stade's "Zeitschrift," xi. 174) concludes that it originally was simply the loin-cloth... Schwally assumes that in prehistoric times the loin-cloth was the usual and sole garment worn by the Israelites. In historic times it came to be worn for religious purposes only, on extraordinary occasions, or at mourning ceremonies..."

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sackcloth

The wearing of sackcloth identifies these martyrs with Elijah and John the Baptist, but also with mourners mentioned in the Bible.

[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The word used, λυχνιαι, is the same as in Rev. 1:20; both are translated into the Pe****ta Bible as "menorahs". In Rev. 1, each menorah represented an entire congregation; so it is reasonable to believe that the two "witnesses" of Rev. 11 are also groups, and not indivituals:

" The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

[5] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[6] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

I have never seen anything like this, nor read about it in post-Johanine history. It appears to be a future event.

[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

In Revelation, this is referenced thus:

Rev 13
[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy...
[5] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
[6] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
[7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

In this passage, the beast is making war with the "saints"; and in Rev. 11 he makes war with the "witnesses". This seems to read, to me, that the beast will CONTINUE for 3½ years; but that his "overcoming" of the witnesses/ church will come at the END of that period.

[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[9] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

This "ascension" seems to be what was spoken of in Rev. 12 re the "man child":

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

This cannot refer to Jesus, who will not be killed, rise from the dead and ascend a second time: This refers to TWO, LATTER DAY, witnesses or groups of witnesses. This ascension happens immediately AFTER the 3½ years, which is the same time that the child's mother is supposed to be cared for in the wilderness. It is during this time, then, while the "woman" is in the "wilderness", that the Dragon (not the Beast) is busy going after "[those] which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

That puzzles me. Is the woman the church? and are those others, those who "keep the commandments of God..." perhaps the Jews, now somehow bearing the testimony of Jesus Christ? Or is it visa versa, and the Jews are the woman? In the last days, it seems the beast will be able to get its hands on the Jews more easily than on the true Christians; but whichever it is, we do have two entities here (the woman, and the commandment-keepers), and two witnesses. Perhaps the two pairs correspond with each other.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

There is one passage that strongly suggests that the woman of Rev. 12 is the church, and the awakened Jews are the man-child, and not the other way around:

Rev 12
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The first thing I need to deal with here, is that this woman AND the remnant of her seed are both being persecuted by the DRAGON, not the beast. That is easily reconciled, by the fact that the dragon is the one who gives power to the beast, and that the beast, the dragon and the false prophet all work in concert:

Rev 16
[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

What makes me think that the woman is the church, is the fact that the Devil can't seem to connect a punch against her: He spews out a flood against her, but the earth swallows it up. In the world we live in today, roughly 1/3 of its inhabitants CLAIM to be Christians; yet the vast majority of them are apostate and will doubtless give their allegiance to the beast. What's more, "true" Christians can't be found out by checking genealogical records, or even by having neighbors turn them in. The Jews, on the other hand, are easy to pick out: Over 40% of them live in Israel, and carry Jewish identiy cards. In the rest of the world, you just have to look for people who resemble Puerto Ricans and carry "Down with Israel!" signs. That should suffice, for rounding up perhaps another 30%. The rest can be discovered by their DNA, or by their propensity to interrupt and argue (humor). Concerning the Christians, though, one of my elders once said,

"If Christianity became illegal, would there be enough evidence to convict you?"

The answer, in most cases, would be "No."

Concerning the Jews becoming the "man child", I can only speculate. What comes to mind, is the difference between the six million European Jews who went like sheep to the slaughter in WWII, on the one hand, and the men and women of Israel, who terrify all the countries around them because of their strength. I think that's a stretchy analogy, because it's hard to see that such a man-child could be considered a child of the church. I need to ponder that angle some more.

Identifying the first "witness" as the man-child of the woman, then, is not too difficult: He is a child of God who knows he is a child of God, and walks in faith and power. The identity of the second witness is more problematic, as I said above; but the fact that each of the two is identified with a menorah, identifies each as a covenant people of the God of the Bible -- and TWO menorahs implies two different covenants.

Now I want to compare the account of the killing of the witnesses in Jerusalem ("the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.") with the events of Zechariah 14:

Zech 14
[1] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
[2] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle (1); and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city (2).
[3] Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle (3).
[4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
[5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
[6] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

(1) "all nations" (which is to say, the "goiim"), "united", would be the "United Nations". Doubtless, this invading force would have a leader; and that leader would be the Superpower of the day, namely, "the Beast".
(2) cf. Rev. 11:2-14 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth... And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
(3) cf. Rev. 12:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Note the color-coding, which harmonizes Rev. 12 with Zech. 14. The seventh angel "sounding" a trumpet corresponds with a resurrection of the dead. In Rev. 12, it is the "two witnesses" who rise. cf:

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first...

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Rev. 11 mentions an earthquake:
[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[13] And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Let's see if this earthquakeis mentioned elsewhere...

Zech 14
[3] Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
[5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Note the highlighting in magenta. These passages speak of a group of BELIEVERS who shall still be around after the "witnesses" are taken up into the sky -- people referred to as "ye", speaking to John and those pertaining to him. That "ye", then, must be people who have read the New Testament. When I gave my life to God's service in my 20s, I read the New Testament every chance I got. Even so, it took me about 6-8 weeks to get through it. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that the "ye" here are brand-new believers, suddenly converted when they saw the "two witnesses" rising from the dead. They are Christians or Messianics, "left behind" by the "rapture" of the two witnesses.

There is mention of a mass conversion of Jews -- not in the apocalyptic events of Zech. 14, but earlier (scripture-wise), in Zech. 12:

Zech 12
[2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
[3] And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
[4] In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
[5] And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
[6a] In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left...

("Judah" corresponds to the "Occupied Territories" of Israel, or the fictitious but internationally recognized "Palestinian State", along with large parts of "Green Line" Israel, which became Jewish-controlled in 1948))

[6b] ...and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

(The "Jerusalem" of John's day was focused on the Temple Mount, which was first regained by Israel in 1967 and fully annexed by 1980)

[7] The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
[8] In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
[9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

All the nations surrounding Israel attacked the young country between 1948 and 1973. They were all repulsed by the Jews, against incredible odds. Verses 2-9, therefore, have all been fulfilled. The following verses, therefore, could be already happening, or could happen in the near future: This is not specifically an end-time prophecy:

[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
[11] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
[12] And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
[13] The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
[14] All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

In case one is wondering about who or what Hadadrimmon in Megiddon is, I looked it up: Nobody knows for sure. It probably just refers to one heapalotta weeping.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Whoever the "two witnesses" are, their appearance marks the advent of something the world hasn't seen for some time: unmistakeable, mass-observed miracles. The time of their arrival corresponds, in Rev. 12, with Satan's fall from heaven:

[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but ashort time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

There are some odd things about the above scenario:

1. The woman starts out IN HEAVEN, and ends up IN THE WILDERNESS for 3½ years.
2. It is "the brethren", who are obviously earthly and mortal (They "love not their lives unto death"), who have overcome Satan -- even though the actual BATTLE took place in heaven. Their "overcoming" was not the same as Michael's "casting out" of the Devil: Their overcoming was in their faith and endurance unto the end.
3. Was the "wilderness" in heaven? Apparently not; because AFTER the Dragon was cast down to earth, he tried to drown the woman with a flood, but the EARTH helped her. This is a strange thing, then, that the woman -- who started out in heaven -- was cast down to earth, howbeit with the help of "wings", about the same time as Satan. That's strange, really strange.

Who is this woman? The bride of Christ?

A "bride" figures prominently in parables in Matt 9 & 25, Mark 2, Luke 5, John 2 & 3 and Rev. 18. The New Jerusalem is described as a bride of the Lamb in Rev. 21:2, 9; and Rev. 22:17. This must certainly be the woman.

Rev. 21
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The "earth" that the New Jerusalem comes "down" to is the NEW earth, a place quite different from the planet "Earth" we now live on. It has no sea, for instance; and its appearance apparently comes AFTER the Millennium. Still, it has a "bride", who seems to be identified with the "woman". Remember, in all this, that "earth" does not mean a "planet" in the Bible -- not in Hebrew, and not in Greek. In both these cases, it means "dirt".

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Forgive me, for straying into Revelation 21. I was searching for references to the "bride of Christ", and that's the only place I could find any. The big problem with bringing Rev. 21 into this discussion, is the fact that it speaks not of the "heaven and earth" we now know, but of a "NEW heaven and a NEW earth".

That is a world that is not physically accessible to us mortals. It is a post-millennial place; and when it appears to us, the old heaven and earth are sequestered from us -- a heaven where an antagonist, HaSatan, stands in God's presence, day and night, to accuse us, or where he is just being kept in a "holding cell", the "bottomless pit", to once again rear up in rebellion. It is a world wherein we live with transformed bodies, no longer mortal, and nobody is held in bondage anymore by the fear of death. Those old things are, in Rev. 21, sequestered far from us, NEVER to return, burning continually with HaSatan in the Lake of Fire.

Rev. 21 is, as I said, far from us at the moment. There is indeed a woman there, the "Bride of Christ", who has made herself ready for her groom; and those of us who endure to the end are in her. The woman of Rev. 12 is a different person, one still assailed by the Devil and in need of protection. I still wonder why the scriptures draw a distinction between her and her "seed". It may be, that she is a SPIRITUAL (unseen) entity that does indeed give "birth" to us.

When I first gave my life over to the service of God, some things came together:

1. Me. I had to be prepared, in my heart, to meet God. There are many scriptures that describe this preparation.
2. The Bible, both Old and New Testament. By the time of my encounter, I had read the entire NT, and, I believe, all of Torah (the 5 Books of Moses)
3. The church, in its glory. A year before I gave my life to God's service, I had lived for a few days in a Christian commune, and witnessed firsthand the love the brethren had for one another.

Those three, those were my parents. Now, let's sort them out:

1. I was the unfertilized egg -- and believe me, my life was spiritually sterile without the love of God coursing through it.
2. The Word of God. That was my spiritual father. Words go in and out of people; and the same Word that was in God at the beginning had been assimilated into Jesus. This formed the basis of the New Testament -- which I first received, in its entirety, in my mid-20s.
3. The church was my spiritual mother -- to whit, those brethren I encountered, and the love they expressed both toward me and among themselves. I did not encounter them in any "church building", and was not part of any organization: They were lives, knit together into one greater life that was devoted to Jesus.

There you have it: The woman, as one entity, and her seed (me) as another.

How did the "man child" fit into this? I don't know if I've encountered him yet, or if I am growing into part of him. The woman's seed, of whatever sex, needs to mature in order to express its character; and even then, some of her seed become women and not men: saints able to bear and nurture children into the faith. The fully grown man in Christ, on the other hand, is a warrior who fights to protect the women and children. Some pertinent scripture:

Eph 6
[11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
[14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
[15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
[16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
[18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
[19] And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

It is that spiritual warrior, fully armed, that is, I believe, the "man child" spoken of in Rev. 12. (Before he can don the armor, of course, he needs to grow into it. Also, I have known "women" in the flesh, who were "men" in Christ, particularly those who persevered in battle in prayer) He does battle with the Devil and his minions, and overcomes him:

Rev. 12
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Here is how we do battle:

Matt 10
[18] And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
[19] But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
[20] For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
[21] And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
[23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
[24] The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
[25] It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
[26] Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
[27] What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There might have been a sign near Jesus when he spoke those words:

PRE-TRIB RAPTURE NOT SPOKEN HERE
​

 

[BlandOatmeal]

I've figured out who the Rev. 12 woman is, to my satisfaction. Now I'd like to go on to the Rev. 17 woman:

Rev 17
[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

cf. Rev 12
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days....
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Note that it says THE wilderness, not A wilderness, meaning that Rev. 12 and Rev. 17 both speak of THE SAME wilderness.

[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

cf. Rev 12
[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Note that the Rev. 17 woman was arrayed with the colors an baubles of earthly royalty. The Rev. 12 woman, on the other hand, was arrayed not with gems that glitter in the light, but with the sun and moon; and she wore a celestial crown, higher in authority than that of the greatest ruler on earth. If these two were once the same woman, "17" has traded an eternal, heavenly treasure for fleeting earthly wealth and honor. If "12" is the true church, the Bride of Christ, then perhaps "17" is one who could have been the Bride, but settled for something less: The Apostate Church.

[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
[6] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

It's interesting, that the KJV translators used the word "martyrs" here, instead of "witnesses", when in fact the two are identical in meaning. The "two witnesses" prophesied during the 3½ years. Will the Mother of Harlots and Abominations also live during the 3½ years?

[7] And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The bottomless pit is a "holding cell" for devils and their ilk. It is referred to as such, elsewhere in scripture. The fact that the beast had already been held there, meant that THIS 7-headed creature was not the 7-headed Dragon, which is referred to as such and not at "the beast" The Dragon was in heaven while the beast was in its holding cell. Later, when the beast would be cast into the LAKE OF FIRE, the Dragon would take his turn in jail.

[9] And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth...

[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest uponthe beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom untothe beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Apparently, though the Mother of Harlots has killed plenty of "witnesses" on her own, the Beast, who apparently will kill the two witnesses in Jerusalem at the end of the 3½ years, will also have turned against the Mother of Harlots by that time. If the Beast is the descendant of the Roman Empire, and the Mother of Harlots represents the Catholic Church (the other apostate churches being her daughters), then this "turning" has already happened: It is the confiscation of church properties and disestablishment of the various churches that has happened over the past 500 years.

What interests me, is that the "wilderness", where the woman appeared, is identified with Rome, the City of Seven Hills. It was primarily in the Roman Empire, that the early church was scattered, and in the descendant states of the RE that the church grew and was sustained until this present generation. The place of exile of the Jewish people, moreover, after the FIRST temple was destroyed was BABYLON, hence the identification; for the Roman Empire was the main place of exile of the Jews after the SECOND temple was destoryed.

Supper will be done soon. Comments welcome.