"Empire" Prophecies in the Book of Rev. (Abrahamic only)

[BlandOatmeal]

BABYLON AND THE CHASTE LADY

Hello again.

I would like to hear what others have come up with concerning these chapters; but there is value in simply exploring these matters with you online. I would like to learn what they mean myself; and judging by the lack of input from others, I would guess the matter hasn't been thoroughly gone over. Let's jump in where I left off in Revelation 17.

I've identified the "Mother of Harlots" as the apostate church, rightly or wrongly. This is in a prophecy given to John, while he was being exiled on an island off of western Turkey, where he had spent some years, apparently, ministering to the churches there. It's interesting, therefore, that the "Mother of Harlots" should be called "Babylon", but identified with the city of "seven hills", an obvious reference to Rome. In John's day, Rome was not the seat of any known Pope. It wasn't the epicenter of Christianity either, since the wording of Revelation seems to put that in western Asia. As for Babylon, it was the place of exile from the time of the destruction of the FIRST Temple, some 600+ years beforehand. Since the SECOND Temple had recently been destroyed, maybe it was fitting to describe the contemporary place of exile as the new "Babylon". That exile was mainly in the Roman Empire, which included Asia Minor.

Thinking of "Babylon" as the exiled nation of Israel, or as the believing portion of that exile who had fallen into apostasy over the years, the "Wilderness" would seem to describe the countries of the Jews' wandering. I draw this analogy from the fact that the Jews had wandered once before in a "wilderness" as a nation, in Sinai, during the last generation of their exile in Egypt before re-entering the Promised Land of their forefathers.

I need to think on all this for a while... (think, think...)

Throughout the years, whenever I've read Revelation, I have separated, in my mind, the chapters about the seven churches in Asia from the later, "prophetic" (or, in Jewish thinking, "prognosticating") part of the book. I shaln't do that anymore. God was imparting a revelation to John, in terms that John could understand; and John's understanding had to do with the churches he had charge of. We find a type of the "Mother of Harlots" in the exhortation to the church at Thyatira:

Rev. 2
[19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
[20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
[21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
[23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

I wondered for a moment, whether this "Jezebel" might have been those Jews who rejected Jesus. This doesn't quite match, though, because the Jezebel John was referring to (as well as her ancient namesake, Ahab's wife) was trying to seduce the believers into the false religious practices of the Phoenicians, and Greeks, (and thence the Romans). The sin she taught, which was described as "fornication" (hence identification with the "Mother of Harlots"), was syncretism: the mixing of Judaism with pagan practices.

Idol worship
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Without personal offense meant towards Roman Catholics, into whose sect I was born, synchretism was the very essence of "Mother Church" -- especially when it came to offerings to idols. According to Jewish teaching, directed at Jews who were daily surrounded by idols as they lived and worked in the Pagan world, looking at an idol was not a sin; what was a sin, was performing an act of worship towards the idol, such as burning incense to it.

"The Mother of Harlots", therefore, was, in John's eyes, present already among the saints of Asia Minor, where John himself was also living in the "wilderness" of exile.

The two women of Revelation
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It is interesting that this same exhortation to the Thyatirans contained the promise that the faithful among them would be given (vv. 26-27) "power over the nations: and [they would] rule them with a rod of iron". That is also the description of the "man child" of the Rev. 12 woman, the lady in the wilderness who had not corrupted herself.

There is therefore a connection in the book of the chaste woman (the faithful church) with the fornicating woman (the paganized church).

 

[melk]

Hi, BLAND
I like to read your posts. Learn a lot with them. Why aren´t you writing anymore?

 

[jtartar]

This thread is meant to be a logical continuation of the discussion of the "statue" vision in Daniel 2. The same restrictions apply here as in that thread: Abrahamic faiths only.

Daniel's visions have been interpreted by most, as predicting a succession of empires; the last of which is the Roman Empire. Revelation speaks of an empire centered in Rome, which "seemed to have suffered a deadly wound, yet it healed". I take that to mean a RESURRECTED Rome, namely, the "Holy Roman Empire" inaugurated by Charlemagne in 800 AD. The "old" Roman Empire was re-centered from Rome to Constantinople in the Fourth Century, and ended with its overthrow by the Ottomans in 1453. The modern nations of Europe, in turn, grew out of the Holy Roman Empire (which ended in 1802).

A good snapshot of the transition from Old Roman to Holy Roman to Modern European was the late 15h Century, around the time of the expulsion of the Muslims and Jews from Spain and of Columbus' discovery of America, less than 50 years after the fall of Constantinople:

Map SRC: NationStates • View topic - 1492: Europa Diplomatica (OOC/SIGNUPS)

At this time, the Ottoman Empire occupied roughly the area that had been held by the Roman Empire after the fall of the west to the barbarians; the Holy Roman Empire still existed, but largely as a legal fiction. Brandenburg was virtually independent, and would later become Germany. The empire was by now ruled by the Hapsburg dynasty, which shortly after the time of this map ruled Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the Czechs and Slovenians, Slovakians, Hungarians, Croatians, Transylvanians, Spaniards, Portugese and most Italians. France was ruled by the Bourbons, who were descended from Charlemagne. The ruling house of England, the Tudors, likewise descended from the European houses by female lines. By around 1945, these countries and their colonies would rule the entire world, from Japan to Iran to Ethiopia to America.
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BlandOatmeal,
Allow me to give you as alternate explanation of the prophecies of Daniel.
Why would you believe that the Roman empire is the last one in line of the World Powers that Daniel mentioned?? There is really no indication in the Holy Scriptures that Rome will gain power again. Many times in the scriptures different powers in the past are used as a symbol. This is called Typology, and especially is this used for Babylon, which is symbolized as Babylon the Great in Revelation, because of all things old Babylon was noted for, was false religion, as is easily seen by the excavations of old Babylon. The fact is: Most of the false doctrines and beliefs of today have come from old Babylon.
Now, if you will follow closely I will give you the understanding, that fits all of, both history and Bible symbols.
As you mentioned, much of the end times were recorded by Daniel. First notice that all the different World Powers were pictures as BEASTS, Dan 7:1-3, then he goes on to tell exactly who these beast represented Dan 7:4-8. The first horn was Babylon, because that is the World Power at the time of Daniel, then second was the Medes and Persians, third, Greece, forth, Rome. Here is a very important point to remember, and very few consider this, ANOTHER HORN came up , A LITTLE ONE, from Rome, Dan 7:8. It is critical that anyone wanting to understand Revelation, must recognize this Little HORN that came up was Briton. History tells us about how Briton, fought Spain, Dutch, and the French for supremacy. Briton started out small by grew until, it was said that the sun never set on the British empire, Dan 7:24. Notice that here ANOTHER HORN is mentioned again. The reason this horn is not called a fifth is because it comes directly from the Roman World Power, that was never conquered. This seventh World power becomes a conglomerate of The United States and the British Empire, which is the 7th head of the BEAST mentioned at Revelation 17:3.
Remember, in each of Daniels great prophecies each part meant something following, never do they revert to something in the past.
The reason this BEAST, which stands for the Political elements of the world, has seven heads, is because there were two World Powers that reigned before Daniels time, which was during the reign of Babylon, the third World Power. ALL the world powers were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, Rome, The Anglo-American World Power, of which the United States became the dominate power after WW2, Rev 17:9,10.
Notice that Rev 17:11 mentions an 8th King, which will reign after the 7th.
This 8th King is going to be the UNITED NATIONS.
The Great HARLOT that is riding on the back of this 7 headed Beast is THE WORLD EMPIRE of FALSE RELIGION. How perfect that fits, has not false religion put herself as a guide to the Political Powers. Notice that she is pictures as a HARLOT, because she has relations with the Political element, Rev 17:2. Notice how scriptures 2-6 describes perfectly False Religion. Especially verse 6 where she is pictures as killing God's saints and marytrs, but also her attire, verses 4,5. Also the harlot daughters picture all the many different false religions, all over the world.
As for the 8th King picturing The United Nations, notice that the seventh head is the one said to have given it life, or BREATH, Rev 13:15. This actually happened exactly as the Bible says. In 1919 President Roosevelt called a meeting with the leaders of many governments and they started the League of Nations, which was started to keep from happening again the horrible slaughter that had just ended in WW1. The League of Nations was official in 1920. The League went out during WW2 and came back again in 1945, as The United Nations. Consider how this is exactly explained at Rev 17:7,8.
A very interesting point is mentioned about the United Nations: This 8th King will destroy Babylon the Great, False Religion, when THE TEN KINGS, which picture all the different kingdoms of the earth, the leaders are called, The KINGS of the EARTH, rev 17:12,16-20. What other entity could be pictured as having a Kingdom OVER the Kings of the EARTH??? The Kings of the Earth are the Top ranking leaders of each nation, the ones that control the armies, Rev 19:19.
Last, what other entity on earth, except false religion could be charged with ALL the bloodshed that has happened on earth, Rev 18:24???